<p>I just read a post by a black female about two minutes ago. She had high test scores, was valedictorian of her class, and had seemingly excellent EC's. Someone posted "you will get in just because you're Black." I'm tired of coming on this website and seeing such ignorant, racist comments as the one mentioned above. If people actually read up on college admissions, they would find out that 1/3 of the students at ivy league schools do not belong there. not because they are black, but because they are legacy or they bought their way into the school. If people are going to come onto this board and complain about affirmative action, then they better start complaining about things such as underqualified athletes, rich kids, and legacies. If everyone is so ****ed off about not getting into HYP, then maybe you should have worked harder. Don't blame it on a minority student that worked probably just as hard as you did. Blame it on the rich student that bought their way into college with mommy and daddy's money. Studies have shown that when working in a more diverse environment, one becomes more well-rounded and intellectual. It is a shame that minority students that get into great schools, even ivy league schools, are accused of simply getting in because they are URM. If you have a problem with it, go take it up with your state government or the national government. This is not the place to discredit someone's achievements through high school simply because you are bitter. Get a grip and have some respect for people that worked just as hard as you did.</p>
<p>bump...whatever that means</p>
<p>It is ignorant when people say that someone was accepted to a certain school solely/largely due to his/her race. While being a minority can give someone an edge, he/she still has to be qualified, at least to a certain degree. My friend's older brother was Caucasian, graduated from his high school as valedictorian, and was very involved with his school and community. He goes to Harvard now. So for non-minorities to make such ignorant/racist comments, perhaps they should look more closely upon themselves, to see what they can improve/could have improved, rather than attacking others.</p>
<p>Awww. Are you talking about me tia1989?</p>
<p>Personally, I don't care about race. But I do think it's kind of stupid that race is seemingly more important in the admissions process than what kind of person I am or what I've accomplished.</p>
<p>And I don't know if anybody can say whether or not a person belongs at a particular college or not. Colleges choose whomever they want for whatever reasons they want. If they accept them, they're stuck with them, even if that person turns out to be a rich, preppy, legacy moron.</p>
<p>agreed...to some extent...while affirmative action may or may not be the best plan, racism has existed and still exists today. affirmative action serves to level the playing field and if you have a better plan, try becoming a congressman (or writing to yours). but do realize that the average anglo-american family has a wealth of 40k, while the average hispanic family has a wealth of 4k...and according to scientific research (thomas sowell's more specifically), all races should have the same average IQ, yet they dont. and why is that? racism. IQ is influenced by environmental factors and sociological factors; contrary to popular belief, IQ can be increased over time and is a product of the world you live in and your brain--both, not solely one. So for a URM to overcome these obstacles and succeed where there grandparents had not is quite the accomplishment.</p>
<p>I have posted on this subject on other occasions, but I will be glad to discuss it again. I personally am an affirmative action hater. I don't see how it is fair that one racial group has an inherent advantage over another. Admittance should be solely based on academics and achievements. Race shouldn't be a factor. </p>
<p>For those of you who say that the "choose your race" part of the application is opitional, therefore your race won't hurt you if you don't report it, you couldn't be more wrong. Most people who don't report their race are whites or asians who are hoping not to be discriminated against. Any minority would never leave this part of the application blank because it is their ticket to a 200 point advantage on the SAT (this gain has been proven to be accurate). Therefore, it is pretty obvious that a person who omitted this part of the application is not a minority. My own cousin, who is half-white/half-black, had this choice to make. I think it is pretty obvious what she picked.</p>
<p>Tia1989, as for the black girl with the super-stats applying to top colleges, I wish her good luck. She might have stats that are good enough for her colleges, but it would be naïve to say that her status as a minority holds no bearing in her acceptances. Of course it does. Do I think it is fair to say that all minorities at colleges are at the "bottom of the barrel" academically: no way. However, minority status certainly helps your chances.</p>
<p>"Studies have shown that when working in a more diverse environment, one becomes more well-rounded and intellectual. " where are these studies, I would like to see them, and if they do exist, I do not believe that associating with a minority would make me more intellectual.</p>
<p>i think it's pretty obvious if you're in a more diverse environment, you naturally become more open-minded if you actually talk to people from different backgrounds--not just racial backgrounds--and you learn from these people's life first-hand; it beats wikipedia.</p>
<p>Ahhh, as the application season begins, so do our frustrations. tia, you bring up a good point that people dislike AA but neglect other "unfair" practices such as the whole legacy/athlete/development cases. And I feel that is the biggest problem with college admissions. But why do we do that? Maybe because of our inherent prejudices. However, the fact remains that some very deserving people are not offered spots because of AA (and there are numerous studies to back this up). Is that fair? I guess that is what everyone is debating, but I doubt there is a right answer here. (note: my post is not a comentary on AA or anything like that).</p>
<p>Agreed. I disagree with many aspects of the system, but do not blame the people it helps. You all know as well as I do that if you had such an opportunity to take advantage of to help you get into school, you'd do it.</p>
<p>Well then I guess forced diversity has had the opposite affect on me. :/
I still don't understand the "intellectual" part of it and still want to see the studies.</p>
<p>well you can not blame people for disliking it. regardless of how perfect a person's stats are, there is someone else who has the same scores and the fact a person is indian or black american does help push them over; its like an extra curricular thats a birth right. It was not being racist so much as it was just hating on an advantage that others can't have.</p>
<p>Being Asian I absolutely hate Affirmative Action...but it doesn't mean I don't agree with it. </p>
<p>Arguments against affirmative action usually sound like this
"OMG, I'm more qualified than he is but he's gettin in cuz he's black! Just cuz black ppl r stoopid doesnt mean we shuld accomodate for their stoopidity. black ppl have lower SAT scores, lower gpa blah blah blah blah"</p>
<p>While it's true that statistically African Americans have a lower SAT score/gpa etc...their lower scores certainly do not have anything to do with their ethnicy. Instead it is a reflection of the poor academic performance of economically disadvantaged individuals...it doesn't matter if your white/black/asian/hispanic. Statisically blacks are lower than other races because a disproportionally high percentage of them are poor, this isn't their fault either, but I won't digress.</p>
<p>admit it , affirmative action help certain "underrepresented minorites" get into certain schools and occupations. It may not be the sole reason you got in but it can be a key determaining factor. like it or not the world is not fair. that brings up another question. What is fair? Ask yourself that question and I challenge everyone to give me a perfectly politically correct, unbiased answer.</p>
<p>being a minority myself (black and puertorican) i think its a great idea, and i'm not just saying that because it helps me. heres my reasoning</p>
<ol>
<li><p>diversity- college is supposed to open your eyes to the real world. you may have been sheltered in high school and it may have been predominitaly one race but college is supposed to be different... who wants to go to a 98% white school. Some white kids might not care but i can probably speak for most when I say I certainly would not. </p></li>
<li><p>lost opportunities- this kind of ties in to #1 but when searching for a school to attend, if a college is 98% white, it will definitely turn away a lot of people...blacks, asians, latinos, indians</p></li>
<li><p>made for blacks- the real reason affirmative action was set up was because to help blacks out so they could get a fair education. The reason- slavery. I know youre thinking "oh god not this again" or "get over it, it was 200 years ago" but let me elaborate. Think about how much slavery set blacks back. In the 1800's many whites were educated and moving a long in society while blacks (even free ones) were stuck... Even after slavery ended, the trend was obviously to continue. as blacks started obtaining basic education, whites were becoming more and more educated. Even into the 1950's massive discrimination was a common occurance making it hard for blacks to get a good education, good jobs, good homes, and provide good lives for their kids. Everyone knows back then the whites schools had more funding.. IMO, affirmative action is good because many (im not saying all) blacks dont have the same opportunities as whites and its saying to the blacks if they work hard, as hard as their white competition, then it shows they have what it takes to succeed in life. you can not argue the fact that the lasting effects of discrimination are still around and that the late start of blacks into the world of education is responsible for their lack of. think about how much more progress black people could have made if there was never any slavery or discrimination. If you ever wondered why when you go to a ghetto, you see mainly black people? Think again... poor education--> crappy jobs--> no money<---lasting effect of discrimination in the workplace---> bad education for children---> crappy jobs, etc. It's a cycle. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>NOW THIS IS WHAT I AM NOT SAYING
1.ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE POOR
-> UNTRUE..THERE ARE SUCSESSFUL BLACK PEOPLE BUT IT IS NO DOUBT THAT THEY HAVE PROBABLY HAVE HAD TO WORK HARDER THEN THE AVERAGE WHITE PERSON TO GET WHERE THEY ARE</p>
<ol>
<li>A BLACK KID NAMED JOHNNY LIVES IN THE GHETTO AND GOES TO A CRAPPY SCHOOL. HE WANTS TO GO TO YALE BUT HE HAS A 2.7. tHEY SHOULD LET HIM IN BECAUSE HE'S BLACK AND HAS SUFFERED.HELL LETS LET ALL THE BLACK PEOPLE INTO THE BEST SCHOOLS BECAUSE THEIR BLACK AND HAD A HARD LIFE
-->NO..IF YOU THINK THIS IS WHAT I AM GETTING AT, THEN YOU ARE AN IGNORANT %$&@^.
-----</li>
<li>personally i think that affirmative action should be directed at BLACKS because they probably need the most help but that is not to say that it needs to apply to all black people or to all races. First off I think that it is unfair that other minority groups have jumped on the bandwagon just because they are minorities too. . i understand that white families and other families have obstacles too. But that is different from family to family and is a microscopic comparison to the number of blacks as a whole and blacks deserve it because they've been facing these obstacle for hundreds of years</li>
</ol>
<p>I dont think race should be as big of a factor and grades or sat's or anything. but i do think that is should be a factor</p>
<p>one more thing...how's affirmative action any more unfair then lagacies. and being a legacy is a MUCH MUCH bigger advantage then being a minority. So what if your parents went to a school. Does that mean you should be able to get in with ease even if you are not up to par with the average student.</p>
<p>so next time some kid wants to go the same college as you and has the same grades and activities, etc, and they say their black and you wonder why they get in over you, think about if they had the same opportunities you had, or if his ancestors had the same opportunities and your ancestors, think about how much more progress they would have made and that will probably answer your question.</p>
<p>this is just the opinion of a 16 year old boy</p>
<p>I think legacies and "paying" the college to take in kids are more unfair than affirmative action and, yes, more people should be cracking down on those kids rather than the races in terms of unfairness. I honestly see no relation in legacies and a student's ability to succeed at a certain school. It kind of bothers me that some kids can get in simply due to which family they were born into because it really doesn't reflect how well a student will do in school. So what if your father was Stephen Hawking? Doesn't guarantee that you're going to be brilliant. </p>
<p>If we could all go to school depending on who we're related to, something we really have no control over, then what would be the point in doing anything in high school? All the preparation that most people have done are done by themselves as a testimony to their OWN strengths and abilities. That is what colleges should judge admits on, not on who someone was related to.</p>
<p>It seems to me that if you're very affluent (well your parents at least) or a minority you have an advantage over some middle-class white with the same stats. Granted, there are the well-offs who shouldn't be attending an Ivy, and they are because of their parents social stature. </p>
<p>I wouldn't say I'm for AA, but I'm not against it either. I think there are some problems that need to be corrected. For instance, if I school doesn't enroll a certain amount of minority students they might be seen as racist. Therefore they might accept an African American student over a Caucasian student with exactly the same stats.</p>
<p>URM SAT scores at the Ivy's typicallly are somewhere between 150 to 400 points lower than median SAT entering class scores (already an artificially low because the number is a combined non-URM and URM median number) </p>
<p>Legacy SAT with the Ivy's tends to be very close to the median scores - often better</p>
<p>However - to be fair - they should judge URMs just like legacies on scores and grades and class rank</p>
<p>afro_ninj4, I just had to respond to your post. AA was not created just for African Americans and because of slavery. Blacks were not the only race that was repressed during the first centuries of our country. Everyone who was not a white male was looked down apon. You may not be familar with the history of other minorities, but some groups had it just as bad, if not worse then the African Americans.
Look at the Native American's, they were murdered, raped, and had their lands stolen from them. They were forced to relocate onto reservations, and even prohibited from speaking their language and preforming their customs. The actions the occured so long ago are still effecting Native American's. They live on reservations which look like third world countries, they have an education system that is apalling, unemployment runs rampid and there is very few oppurtunities for people to get out of this cycle.</p>
<p>Here are some current statistics on Native Americans...</p>
<p>They are the ethnic group with the greatest percent living below the poverty level.
Life expectancy on a US reservation for a American Indian is only 47 years.
Infant mortality rate is 81% higher on reservations
Sucide rate is 190 times higher than the national average on reservations.</p>
<p>afro ninja, I would like to say that was a good post, but it was not. actually, i didn't even want to say that. you need to do some research before providing deep thoughts. and these moralistic arguments on AA are just annoying.</p>