Audition/class size numbers

College Majors Musical Theater Major
181

<p>"The above sentence says that 3 schools are seeing 1500 students but the other 27 are seeing 300 (that's only 11 per school)."</p>

<p>That is not at all how I interpreted that sentence or those numbers. I don't think doctorjohn meant that of the theoretical 1800 students, 1500 of them apply to CCM, CMU, and Tisch and the other 300 students apply to the rest of the schools. I think he meant to be using those first 3 schools and the number as an example of the "larger picture". He then expanded that example to include 30 schools (rather than 3) and a larger pool (1800 vs. 1500 students.) He was trying to make the point that a lot of the same kids are auditioning at a lot of the same schools and that the acceptance rates (though still low) not as low as just using the percentage of number of acceptances out of number auditioning. I think it also illustrates why kids should have a bigger list of schools for auditioning/applying than the typical college applicant. </p>

<p>That being said it, indeed, is very important to have a safety school. There should also be a financial safety, as well.</p>

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<p>AZKMom addressed the first half of MTdad's posting.</p>

<p>As per the second half the primary difference between MTdad's and DrJohn's calculation is the amount each used for the total number of students that applied to any school for MT.<br>
- Dr. John used 1,800 students and
- MTdad used 12,200 students</p>

<p>The large variance between these two numbers yielded the difference in results.</p>

<p>As the actual accurate number for total number of students I don't believe that this number is available. All schools with MT programs would have to be poled, applicant lists cross checked and numbers tallied and this just is not being done.</p>

<p>Here is my attempt at calculating the total number of students......</p>

<ul>
<li>I downloaded the Big List of schools and crossed off the schools without bachelor degrees. This left me with approximately 150 schools.</li>
<li>I then cross referenced this list with the numbers from the 2008 Acceptance Numbers thread.</li>
<li>This list gave numbers from approximately 25 schools.</li>
<li>The total number of applicants from these 25 schools was 12,000</li>
<li>Estimate that each student applies to 10 schools (this is my guess at an average) (It is a given that students applying to MT degrees apply to more than one and you can not leave this fact out of the calculation)</li>
<li>This gives us an estimated 1,200 total students for these 25 schools.</li>
<li>125 schools were not listed on the Acceptance Numbers threads. As 125 is 5 times as much as 25 then with multiplying the 1,200 by 5 we get 6,000.</li>
<li>Thus in my mind, the maximum number of total students would be 7,200.</li>
</ul>

<p>This number is obviously way too high as the list of 25 schools that reported their numbers included CCM, BoCo, NYU, CMU and Syracuse which have a much, much higher number of applicants than the other schools.</p>

<p>THUS as I prefer to sleep at nights, I chose to believe that Dr. John's choice of 1,800 students is closer to the actual number.</p>

<p>Thank you for this opportunity for a MT mother who knows little about MT but a lot about math, utilize my comfort zone.</p>

183

<p>Regardless if I miss read how he interpreted the numbers look at my numbers. Even if there are only 50 different applicants per school (and I think my estimate of 100 was conservative) that is still 6100 for 2440 spots. He states that there is a spot for everyone who wants to do musical theatre, that is a nice thought but mathematically impossible. Something else to consider is that there is not necessarily as many cross over applicants at the other 90+ schools. If we hadn't found CC my D wouldn't have auditioned for some of the cross-over schools mentioned. If a school does not participate in Unifieds and is not as well known you can bet the cross over rate is very small.</p>

184

<p>The average number of schools one applies to for MT is maybe 8-10 to the well informed, by that I mean people who read this board and have excellent guidance. There is very little MT guidance at the average high school. For everyone of the well informed there is at least one other that only applied to 3 schools or less. Our initial number was only 4 and the 3 others students from my D's high school applied to 3, 4, & 5 respectively. We've even seen posters on this board that have applied to only one. Also, not everyone can afford to apply to that many schools with the application fees, travel etc. Sorry EnjoytheAdventur, your math is off.</p>

<p>Finally, if the person auditioning is unremarkable they are not going to get accepted no matter what the numbers. The point of all this is that audition MT schools are difficult to get into.</p>

185

<p>It's interesting to play with the numbers but in practice you can not rely on a numerical count of the total number of applicants versus the total number of spots. Not everyone applies to the same schools, not every school is looking for the same things in an applicant/auditioner, not everyone has on their list of schools some schools that are looking for what the student brings to the table and the reality is that there are some applicants who are unsuited for an audition based BFA program regardless of where they apply.</p>

<p>That's why it is critical to come up with a smart list of schools that while diverse is still none-the-less well matched to the student so that regardless of the school, you are in the ball park of what they are looking for and why it is important to apply to several schools so that based on the numerical cross applications you maximize the potential of receiving an acceptance. There may be 20 spots at 20 schools resulting in 400 spots and a total of 1000 different applicants between them but that doesn't mean you have a 40% chance of getting in. If you don't meet the academic criteria for 18 of them and your list of schools doesn't include the 2 where you do, if the school is looking for strong belters and you are a coloratura soprano type, if the school in a particular year is looking to skew their admissions towards a particular gender and it is not yours, then all the statistics in the world are meaningless. If you apply only to schools that draw from a national talent pool, get a 1000 applicants, for 5 spots of each gender the statistics then it doesn't matter if you apply to 5 schools or 10.</p>

<p>The key to success is to research, research, research the schools so that you can come up with a reasonable list that matches what you bring to the table. Then the statistics from among your list become important - maybe.</p>

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<p>MichaelNKat - thank you for your post. I think you hit it on the mark. And as stated above the number crunching was much more for a desire of some re-assurance, although the numbers that go into the calculations are not available so the results are just guesses. As you pointed out there is so much based on what the school is looking for at that particular moment so all we can do is try to increase our chances.</p>

<p>MTDad777 - In my defense, my math is correct. You may disagree with my guessimate that each student applies to an average of 10 schools, but sorry MTDad777, my math is correct and I take offense to your criticism. I don't know how many schools each student applies to. As I stated above, this is an unknown. You were very correct in your statement that there is very little MT guidance at your average h.s. So a more accurate number may be much less than my choice of using 10. (10 is easy to divide by) The four students that applied for MT from my child's performing arts high school last year applied to 22 (wow), 15, 14 and 12. That's an average of 16. Average those with the four students from your h.s. (congrats on having 4 students from a non-performing arts hs) that applied to 3, 4, 4(initially) and 5 and you get an average of just under 10.</p>

<p>You were also correct in your comment, "that MT schools are difficult to get in." Thus my family is doing what we can to help including remaining calm by minimizing our odds and looking at the numbers that promote a positive overview. We are also researching, training and everything else posible to find the Best Fit. </p>

<p>You indicated that your D applied to colleges last year. I hope she found a wonderful fit and is looking forward to having a fabulous college experience.</p>

187

<p>Is the average number of schools really 8-10???</p>

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<p>tinysinger, how many do you have on your list? i have 12 right now...</p>

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<p>My daughter applied to 6 schools, 5 BFA's and 1 non-audition BA with very strong theatre/dance/voice programs and lots of musicals, where she was a good solid academic match. She got a total of 4 acceptances, not because she was the "musical theatre messiah (although I of course think she is :) ), but because we researched the heck out of schools and made what we thought were smart choices for her. Every school on her list was one she would have been happy at, each school was different in some core characteristics and each school was carefully vetted to make sure she brought to the process qualities that the school was looking for. In my opinion, 8 schools, including a couple of non-audition BA's, are all you need. Pick your list wisely and don't make yourself crazy stressing out how you are going to prepare for and schedule 10 or 12 auditions.</p>

190

<p>MikeKat- I think 6 well researched schools is a perfect number including 1 non-audition BA. I also agree that 8 is a perfect top number. When my D got the call backs from Illinois Theatre Fest we added 4 more schools bringing our total to 8. My wife did all the paper work, my daughter wrote her essay's, worked her butt off on her monologues and songs and I made all the travel arrangements and took D to her school visits and auditions. We were all completely spent. This whole process was 10 times more stressful than I ever imagined. Can you imagine doing 22 auditions? I'd need a straight jacket :)</p>

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<p>I doubt the math matters much unless your student is in the group of accepted students at any given school.</p>

<p>I would worry more about researching and choosing schools to audition for that the student likes and ALWAYS ALWAYS having at least one non-audition safety. I can't stress this enough.</p>

192

<p>MNK-
You said, "we researched the heck out of schools and made what we thought were smart choices for her." </p>

<p>Could you elaborate on that? We are in California, so visiting schools before choosing which to audition to is not practical. We are studying the school websites, and of course, this forum. Do you have other suggestions for research? Thanks.</p>

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<p>Visiting is always the best option. If you can't, one thing to do is evaluate the courses required and those offered because programs can vary. Good luck!</p>

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<p>calisamom, a lot of our research involved campus visits and specifically meeting with reps from the theatre departments during my daughter's junior year, but given your limitations in this regard, here are some additional thoughts:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>When looking at websites, drill down through the levels of info available. For example, when looking at descriptions of programs, pull up the curriculum. But don't stop there. Go to the course catalogue and look at the course descriptions. When you go to the page for department faculty, don't stop with the info on faculty listed there, Google them. There is a ton of info available on school/department websites and on the internet, just keep peeling back the layers.</p></li>
<li><p>If you can't visit a school, try to make an appointment to have a telephone conference with a department rep and ask all the questions you would ask if visiting. When we met with department reps, we obtained a ton of program specific info not only about the program but also including how auditions were scored and what the departments were looking for in applicants. So try to find a way to have the same opportunities from a distance.</p></li>
<li><p>Talk to students in the program. A great source of info. The school sub-forums are a great way to connect with students who you can then communicate with privately through PM's or email. </p></li>
<li><p>Talk to local professionals in your area about schools - voice teachers/coaches, acting coaches, directors you have contact with. </p></li>
<li><p>Finally, while not the prime reason for doing so (the training and immersion experience are) and certainly not possible for all schools, my daughter attended summer programs at 2 of the schools she was interested in and had the opportunity to experience the school and work with the actual faculty from the BFA programs. A wealth of opportunities to explore a particular school in depth, provided the program is run by the actual BFA faculty, which is not always the case depending on the program (some programs bring in summer faculty specifically for the program while the regular faculty are off doing their own projects and work). </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Hope this is helpful.</p>

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<p>Wow. Thanks for the great suggestions. You are a wealth of information, not only on this post, but all the others I've read with your name on them! There isn't time for us to follow all of your suggestions, but we'll get to work on the one's we can. And I know this will help others who find this forum earlier in the process. Thanks again!</p>

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<p>I just want to give a shout out to MichaelNKat. I used to post fairly often on CC, but find that I do not need to because much of what I would say has been covered very well by MichaelNKat (and Soozievt, and others).
To this conversation I would just add - and this has been spoken of before - that no school actually auditions 1000 - 1500 students. They may see that many at some unified audition or theatre festival - but to claim them as having auditioned for your school is a bit of tomfoolery with statistics. If you spend 12 minutes with an auditioner and had 1200 auditioning - that is 240 hours, which is 30 days of eight-hour days. Most auditions involve several people on a panel (head of MT, music director, acting person, dance person) - let's say 4 - that is 960 man-hours on auditions. I hope you all can see how ridiculous that is - I mean, really, let's spend some time teaching!. Any school that claims to "audition" more than 600 or so is sort of fudging the numbers to impress someone. To me an audition is when someone comes to your school and auditions for you - and/or, at least - comes to your callback at a convention. The 600 students who auditioned for 30 schools at a theatre conference should not be counted as auditioning for your school.</p>

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<p>Let me quickly add (because I know sometimes contributing is like a presidential candidate making a new statement - that then gets pounced on!) That I would also consider folks who audition for a single school on an "audition tour" as valid numbers of those who auditioned for them.</p>

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<p>mtdog, I agree that schools that add in those they see at thespian and other events and count those into their audition numbers, inflates the numbers. </p>

<p>However, there ARE some schools that truly see more than 1000 at true auditions. This is true of NYU/Tisch and CMU. Tisch sees WAY more. Tisch also has different auditors who all do not see the same candidates and thus several auditions are going on at the same time on any given day. CMU sees 1200 for both MT and Acting combined.</p>

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<p>I know of several schools in addition to Tisch who have different auditors in different rooms running at the same time. This would be another great question to research as you are looking at schools. My personal preference would be to audition at schools where the full panel of head of program, musical director, and choreographer saw all auditions.</p>

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<p>When D auditioned at CCPA/ Roosevelt they had 1 auditor per room. I heard they also did this for Unifieds. That can add up in a hurry especially if the school attends the Unifieds in all cities. Talk about a highly subjective audition, good grief. CCM was timing monologues, no more than one minute! total audition time 6 minutes. At WMU they went through 92 kids from 9am - 2:30pm. D and I found these specifc auditions very impersonal although in fairness to CCM that one was at unifieds, CCPA and WMU were at the schools! To me if they can't spend 5 minutes after the audition speaking with you it not someplace I want to send my kid.</p>