AUDITION vs APPLICATION

College Majors Musical Theater Major
1

<p>I found out some interesting information through UNIFIEDS.</p>

<p>Perhaps some of you are aware of this procedure. I would like input from any of you and specifically Susan and Coach.</p>

<p>There are top schools who were at UNIFIEDS, I will not mention by name, who admitted they only look at supplemental materials (resumes, essays, etc) AFTER a decision had been reached to make an offer of acceptance based on the audition. </p>

<p>Additionally, some schools only look at the academic materials if there will be an offer made. Only at that time, and not before are these materials gathered and evaluated.</p>

<p>Obviously I didn't speak to all the schools but do you think this is true for the majority of schools?</p>

<p>Much attention to application materials is emphasized but none of it will be taken into account unless the AUDITION has opened the door for an acceptance.</p>

<p>Most of my teen students come from private or college prep schools who emphasize the app process. But this certainly prioritizes the audition above all else. I am not sure how I feel about it. I had thought that the total application was weighed evenly along with the audition, which of course I have always thought was the most important element. But I am a talent coach!</p>

<p>I found this process true for most of the schools at NET Drama auditions as many made acceptances based on the day's audition, even before an application. However, I guess I expected a little bit different process with the top tiered schools attending UNIFIEDS.
Susan had expresssed some surprise at NET results and now I am surprised at the UNIFIED proceedure. </p>

<p>Any thoughts?</p>

<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>

2

<p>I guess since the audition is such a filter, I assumed that most schools did it that way.</p>

3

<p>But Mary Anna, I thought that there were quite a few schools (some of them the "top" schools you reference in your post) who <em>invite</em> students to audition AFTER the schools have already screened the students' applications (essays, grades, transcripts, test scores) first? In other words, I thought that certain schools (such as NYU) have students apply on paper first, and only those who pass muster are invited to go on and audition.
If this is true, it contradicts what you heard. Of course, perhaps you were not talking about those schools.
L</p>

4

<p>The only school I know of that does a true pre audition screening is Michigan.</p>

<p>OU does have a pre-screening but the screening is an audition, not an app.</p>

<p>I don't remember NYU having an application pre-screen or presenting it as such. You are allowed to audition if you have applied and have an apointment time.</p>

5

<p>NotMamaRose, while it's true that a few schools do it that way, Tisch does not. Steinhardt does, but not Tisch. The kids who apply to Tisch have two components to their application process, the academic review and the artistic review, which are equally weighted. However, they are not done in any particular order. In fact, they are done by two separate groups of individuals and at separate times. When my D applied in 2002, her E.D. audition took place before they had even received her application. :) I walked it over to the admissions office while I was waiting for her to audition. I have to say that I think it would not be a majority of schools, especially the 'top ones' , who would use the process described by MaryAnna.</p>

6

<p>My son a soph at UM was excepted academically first at UM. But it does seem to me it is sort of a "chicken or the egg thing" with the schools that require a certain academic level-you have to get through on both areas.</p>

7

<p>Mary Anna, I think this varies by school. For instance, I recall at Penn State and at Ithaca, as two examples, they said that once they decide in the theater dept. who they would like based on the audition, the names are sent to the Admissions Office who then decides if the student should be accepted based on the rest of the application (academics, etc.). Perhaps those schools and others you ran into do not bother with the academic application until they "have to" and there are students under consideration based on the audition. It doesn't mean that the audition counts for 100% at all but simply that they don't bother with the rest of the application until they have passed the talent portion, I guess (a time saver??). </p>

<p>However, this is NOT the case at other schools. Two examples....at NYU, the academic application is being reviewed at NYU's admissions office at the same time that the artistic review process is going on at Tisch. The academic application is weighed 50% and the artistic review is weighed 50% in the decision. At UMich, FIRST you have to make a cut based on the academic application, just to be invited to audition. Then you audition. And even then, if they are interested in your based on the audition, they still review all the application materials in your file before a decision is reached. </p>

<p>At some schools, as we have seen on this board, though my D did not apply to any like this, you apply and can get admitted academically before you even audition at all. You could conceivably attend the college and not get into the BFA program, in fact. </p>

<p>So, I think you have to check on how each school handles it. That is the process part. But then there is also the "weight" of each part of the process. Some schools have most of it ride on the audition and then the student just has to "pass" an academic bar to get in and the academic bar, frankly, is not that high. One example: UArts. At other schools, the academics have a bit of a higher bar....like CCM has probably a higher bar than UArts but still academics is not weighed as heavily as artistic review. CMU counts the audition for 90% of the decision. Still the academic bar there is higher than a place like BOCO I think. So, how much academics count and how high that bar to get in is, varies from school to school. At NYU or UMich, you have to be a pretty good student to get in, and can't just be talented. I have clients who I don't even have apply to UMich, NYU, or even CCM (to a lesser degree) who I know won't pass academic muster. So, academics count to varying degrees at each school and to various LEVELS at each school. Certain BFA programs are ones I recommend to kids who have low academic qualifications. </p>

<p>For my own kid, she ideally preferred a BFA program that also had a solid academic environment as she is a very good student. So, depending on your students' college criteria or preferences, you may geer them toward schools where the academic bar is higher. Some may not care. But if they do, this is an aspect worth weighing with each college. Also, some programs offer very little in terms of liberal arts. Some offer more. If your student wants some liberal arts, this is a factor in choosing a BFA program. Also, if your student is a very good academic student and craves challenging learning environments or being amongst motivated students, then that may be a factor in which program to attend. Some schools really do only take students with strong academic profiles and others just have a minimum bar and that is not set that high. </p>

<p>But EVERY school truly does review the application and academic qualifications. Some do it first before auditions, some do it at the same time, and some review that after the audition. How hard it is to get in academically varies from school to school, however.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

8

<p>Let me add that I have had a student turned down admission at Tisch and another at USC after they were accepted artistically based on their audition. </p>

<p>When their app was evaluated it was determined that they did not meet the academic standard of the university. But these were transcript related and not essay/resume/rec related.</p>

<p>I can see why admission would not want to spend time evaluating 800 applicants if their artistic auditors didn't feel their talents merited the effort. But what is the application fee for? I guess it becomes important if the student is a candidate and all materials have to be in place.</p>

<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>

9

<p>Susan,
I'll l take your word for it since you seem to really know this application stuff.</p>

<p>I guess the SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL is the element that is not being evaluated at all unless the student gets an offer. The actual ADMISSIONS APP will be looked at regardless. Am I undertanding you correctly?</p>

<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>

<p>And thanks, btw!</p>

10

<p>We are all cross posting and my post was written only after seeing the very first post, LOL. </p>

<p>For UMich...you don't get "accepted" before you audition. There is no acceptance to attend UMich and then if you don't get in by audition, you still attend. At UMich, they review the app academically and invite you to audition, so it is more like a "cut", but not an official acceptance. </p>

<p>At NYU/Tisch, I absolutely cannot imagine the scenario you describe Mary Anna in this quote:
"Let me add that I have had a student turned down admission at Tisch and another at USC after they were accepted artistically based on their audition."
I have never heard of hearing you were accepted on artistic talent but not academics, in terms of an official acceptance. You have to be accepted both ways and there is no notification of each one separately. Perhaps, the student didn't pass academic review but there is no notification that he/she got in artistically. Tisch does not operate that way. </p>

<p>I recall the USC story you told me but I found that one entirely valid and believable. The student may have had the talent to get in but didn't pass the academic review at USC as it is not an easy school to get into and they do factor in academics and the bar is higher than at some other schools where the academics just need to pass a minimal standard. </p>

<p>For some BFA programs, besides the low acceptance rate into the program itself, the selectivity of the university itself is quite selective and so there is more to the admissions than being talented. My D was looking for a school like that ideally, though had some on her list where getting in academically was something we didn't even have to consider as the standard wasn't that high (ie., BOCO). But for a school like NYU/Tisch, UMich, or USC, you can't just be talented artistically but also must meet a selective academic standard.</p>

11

<p>Mary Anna, we cross posted yet again, so sorry but I did not see your latest post (#9) when I posted my post (#10). </p>

<p>Regarding your question in post #9...I am not sure I get it, sorry. What is this "supplemental material" vs. the "admissions application"? In my posts, when I talk of the application, I mean EVERYTHING the student submitted to the admissions office.....transcripts, application, test scores, essays, recs, etc. etc. </p>

<p>As to your conclusion that: " guess the SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL is the element that is not being evaluated at all unless the student gets an offer. The actual ADMISSIONS APP will be looked at regardless."......No, I am saying EACH school does it differently as described in my earlier post. Some evaluate academics first and invite you to audition, some evaluate academics first and even accept you into the college prior to auditions, some evaluate academics simulataneously in one office while the dept. evaluates the auditions, and other schools have the auditions narrow down the applicants and then the students who the dept. wants artistically are sent to admissions for academic review. As well, each school's level of selectivity in terms of academic standards, varies. AND no matter what, all schools certainly do evaluate the application (and all the pieces in it) and academic qualifications in order to be accepted. As I said, it seems some schools don't bother to do that step unless the theater department submits their name on a list of kids they want artistically.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

12

<p>Just want to be sure I understand about the supplemental apps not being reviewed unless the student is an accept. That seems to be the standard. I think I am undertanding you correctly.</p>

<p>The USC student got an official artistic accept in writing. The Tisch student got a verbal from faculty they wanted her after seeing her audition but admission turned her down based on her transcript. So that is unofficial but believable. Those things can be found out, especially at a private school where staff/faculty are personally accessable. I can PM you the student/mother email if you would like more specifics.</p>

<p>Thanks for the info. I think I've got it now</p>

<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>

13

<p>Let me add that academic qualifications are NOT going to override an inadequate audition. You HAVE to be qualified or talented artistically by their standards to get in. But in ADDITION to that, academics and all the other materials in an application (essays, recs, etc.) are considered. They are just weighed to various degrees by different schools and to various standards of excellence at each school. But all will look at that in order to make an admissions decision. But none will take academics OVER talent. You STILL must make the talent cut in an audition. The academics are in addition to, but not instead of, the audition.</p>

14

<p>We cross posted yet again, Mary Anna, so I did not see post #12, when I wrote post #13. </p>

<p>You wrote: "Just want to be sure I understand about the supplemental apps not being reviewed unless the student is an accept. That seems to be the standard. I think I am undertanding you correctly."</p>

<p>NO, I am not saying this. I am saying SOME schools such as Ithaca or Penn State, do auditions and submit the names of students the dept. is interested in to the university admissions office who then review the student's application (ALL OF IT.....I'm not separating out resumes, letters of recs, essays...but am saying ALL the written materials). But many do it the other ways I have described in two posts. IT DIFFERS FROM SCHOOL TO SCHOOL. </p>

<p>As far as your student at NYU.....all I know is that there is no official ACCEPTANCE into Tisch artistically without the ENTIRE acceptance to the university itself. If your school's counselor was able to find out privately that the student was "eligible" artistically but didn't pass the academic review, I believe you. This is a likely outcome for many students at NYU because academic review counts 50% and artistic review counts 50%. The university itself (not talking Tisch) has an acceptance rate of about 28% and so just getting in academically is quite selective and not all talented kids in theater can make that academic cut. That is why I recommend certain students who I counsel to not even apply to NYU/Tisch because I KNOW they would not get in academically. Same with USC. USC, from what you say (I don't have clients applying there but I think my niece will next year), must give an artistic acceptance officially but others don't all work that way. None of my D's schools broke it down, though Emerson did accept my D into the college but not the BFA. But other schools, from what I read here, do break it down and thus there are kids on this forum getting into schools academically before their auditions even and who may not get into the BFA after the audition (ie., Otterbein, OCU). </p>

<p>I will also reiterate that at NYU/Tisch, they don't FIRST do artistic review that then goes to academic review....both processes are going on at the same time in two separate offices. You don't pass the audition and then have materials looked at. The materials are looked at the Admissions Office while artisic reviews are going on at Tisch. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

15

<p>In rereading some of your posts, Mary Anna, it seems that you are breaking down the written application into transcript vs. all the other written materials. An application is reviewed in its ENTIRETY. It is not just a matter of having X test scores and Y GPA. If that was all it was, then why bother to apply unless you meet X or Y exactly and why do some who have higher X's or Y's get passed over and some with lower ones get in? That's because all of it is looked at.....and schools weigh each piece differently but there is the student's background/context, the GPA, the difficulty of the HS course load, the academic HS subject requirements, class rank, SAT or ACT scores, SAT2 scores at some schools, extracurricular activities (including the level of commitment, accomplishments/achievements, role played in the activity such as leadership or other contributions), the essays, teacher recs, guidance counselor report, supplemental recs, and so forth.</p>

<p>If a counselor at your private school has called to find out why a certain student was not admitted and was told it was the transcript, that may be the case, but way more than a transcript is weighed in college admissions. </p>

<p>I would encourage ALL students to put LOTS of effort into the college application....every single piece of it. And definitely do their very best in HS academically, and take the most challenging courses they can. Commit to activities in which you have an interest and over a long period of time and in a signficant capacity. Write wonderful essays that show the admissions committee who you are. Solicit effective recommendations. Show interest in the college, as well. There is more to this but just making some general comments. </p>

<p>Believe me, they do read the entire application. In fact, when my D was selected as a Tisch Scholar, something we never even knew existed until she received it, we read about the kinds of kids that they chose to be Tisch Scholars. When we read their criteria for selection, it was apparent that some of the things my D talked about in her essays and were on her activity resume dovetailed (unknowingly) with what they were looking for. It was quite clear that they had read her annotated resume, five essays (four short, one long), teacher recs and guidance counselor report because these all touched on the kinds of things that they wanted for Tisch Scholars. In other words, being a Tisch Scholar is not just GPA or SAT cut offs at all. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

16

<p>Susan,
These supplemental materials I speak of are required at many schools my students apply to by the theatre departments and are mailed separately to the theatre/drama/music departments.</p>

<p>They are apart from the application sent to admissions and usually include one or two essays, letters of recommendations from theatre/acting/voice teachers and head shot and resume and in some cases a gpa/sat/act score. </p>

<p>Some of the top schools at UNIFIEDS do not even look at these supplementals unless it is decided the student will be offered an acceptance. I think many of us thought that the supplementals were an actual part of the evaluation for artsistic consideration. Not so at some schools. </p>

<p>As you say it must indeed vary from school to school. I now see that this is not standard proceedure for all schools, just for some. I found it surprising.</p>

<p>Thanks again for all your remarks!</p>

<p>xx,Mary Anna</p>

17

<p>Like Mary Anna, I coach audition material, but as a high school teacher for seven years who guided many drama/MT applicants and wrote many academic recommendations, I have had some experience with these issues. In my experience:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Tisch occasionally does unofficially tell a student of artistic acceptance but the student is not admitted b/c of academics - the situation Mary Anna described also happened to one of my students 4 years ago.</p></li>
<li><p>UM considers ALL "supplemental" material, including essays and recommendations, in offers of admission and especially scholarship offers. I know this for certain, as my students have often had their essays and my recommedations quoted when offers of admission have been made.</p></li>
<li><p>Because Penn State is such a competitive state school (for in-staters), the overall admissions criteria do dominate everything else, including audition. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>It's true that some "top schools" only evaluate academics and/or "supplemental materials" if a student is of interest to the school based on audition. However, it's important to be aware of which schools really DO care about the totality of application materials.</p>

18

<p>Coach !THANK YOU THANK YOU.</p>

<p>I think I have finally communicated.</p>

<p>It may be unrealistic to always know exactly which schoools do it which way, but better be safe than sorry. </p>

<p>My advice to my students will be: have great supp materials, a great admissions app and most importantly, a first rate audition!</p>

<p>Then PRAY!</p>

<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>

19

<p>Mary Anna, the thing is, even if those particular schools do not read the extra recs and essays until they are interested in them talent-wise, it will still be looked at as part of the admissions decision. It might be a matter of which order or which is considered as important, but it will be looked at at some point in the overall admissions decision. The importance of each piece will vary from school to school. The talent piece cannot be made up for by the other pieces. It still must be there. But if two kids, let's just say, have the artistic talent that meets the department's criteria, some of this other stuff may or may not seal the deal. So, it counts. Some school's have a low bar for that other stuff, though. Conceivably, if a school wants 20 students in their BFA program, there are likely more than 20 who meet their artistic qualifications but not all of those kids will be equally attractive in the other application materials, so these DO matter. NO school weighs the audition 100%. Some schools do weigh it 90% and even their academic standards are pretty low, and so these are all things to know about each school and why selecting a college list takes lots of thought with regard to fit and with regard to a student's chances of admissions. One student's list of BFA schools might not be appropriate for the next applicant. I can tell you this is VERY much the case in the kids I see and who is appropriate for which schools. And it is not surprising at all that you or Coach know kids who might have met the standard for artistic acceptance to Tisch (unofficially) but who did not meet it on the other materials. You need both. </p>

<p>Also the supplemental materials you now mention that are sent directly to a department if they require it (and yes, my D had a few that had their own essays and artistic recs and theater resumes), I believe these ARE looked at or they would not bother to require them. But again, some schools only look at these once they are interested in someone artitiscally first, some look at it all at one time, and some review all of that first. But in all cases, in order to be admitted eventually, ALL of the materials are looked at. The order just may differ from school to school as well as the importance of each piece will differ from school to school. </p>

<p>I think the theater resume and headshot, however, are looked at in auditions. I recall at one school, in the audition, the auditor remarked/chatted about my D's voice teacher upon glancing at her resume. At another audition, the auditor chatted about All States from glancing at the resume, etc. I know even in real theater auditions, my D has had casting people make a remark while at the audition from the resume (ie, noticing her theater camp and saying, "I went there too!"), etc.</p>

20

<p>Hi all.
I've learned a great deal just reading through this thread, but have
another question.
My s is a HS Jr and is starting to work seriously at the college search
process. He is interested in Drama, most likely BFA, and we're trying
to establish a list of schools to look at to begin.
He has always been involved in drama, but really only in the past
couple of years has realized how much he really loves it and that
onstage is when he's happiest.
He's also involved in other things; varsity soccer player, Eagle Scout
and member of All State Chorus, so roles have revolved around other
things, usually soccer season.
He's a good student- psat scores indicate he'll be a Nat'l Merit finalist,
SAT's, on first try are 760CR, 730W and 690M. He's in the top 25%
of his class in a strong college prep program.
Any suggestions of where to begin? We've been thru the process
with another s who's a freshman at Wash U, but have little knowledge
of the drama programs.
Thanks!
KY Mum</p>