AUDITION vs APPLICATION

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>BIGIsMama...another difference is that some of the schools you are hearing about here (not counting UMich) that render an academic acceptance first (again, none of my child's schools did this), are admitting these students to the university and the student could conceivably attend even if not admitted to the BFA program. That would not be the case at NYU even IF they did an academic review first. At NYU, you apply to a specific school within the university. You can't attend NYU if you don't get into Tisch itself which has this artistic review. The most it could even do is screen kids to audition but not guarantee an acceptance into the university in terms of academics. However, as AlwasyaMom says, it really is the whole package. Unlike a state university whose admissions process is highly numbers driven (ie., SAT and GPA cut offs, etc), NYU's admissions, like most very selective schools, involves a more wholistic review....things like essays and recs and extracurricular activities count. They don't just accept or deny based on an SAT score or GPA cut off. Like I said, sometimes someone with an avg. SAT score may get in because there are other things in their "package" that makes them an attractive candidate. If it were merely a numbers thing, people could tell for themselves if they either had the numbers or not and decide whether to apply. I know valedictorians denied at Tisch but two kids who got in with SATs in the 1100's. Now, there are not a lot of kids with SATs in the 1100's there and the chances of admissions with those stats is less than with better stats but it is still possible if the candidate has other things going for them. It is not really a cut and dried academic bar. Who knows if Tisch really wants someone, if they can push for them at admissions, either. I don't know for sure but I think the admissions for a Tisch candidate involves all these factors, both the application and the artistic review. And, it also is no secret.</p>

<p>Students and parents must do their research about these schools, NOT just on the MT program but on the academic admissions level of selectivity, the range of SAT scores of admitted students, the avg. GPA, percentage of those accepted who were ranked in the top 10%, top 25% or top 50% of their HS class, the admit rate, the HS course requirements, and so forth and determine if the school is a viable one academically, not just artistically. When a family decides to work with me, a HUGE part of the evaluation and selection of colleges for that student has to do with their chances academically for schools on their list and adjustments often must be made. There is also weighing of the selectivity of the BFA program itself. But the academic component MUST be weighed at ANY school. I have students who would have difficulty getting into Webster, for example, on the academic end of things. Afterall, this IS applying to college, not just MT training. Kids can't just say, I want NYU, I want UMich and just put these on their list. Their list must be built in terms of appropriateness to their qualifications....both academically and artistically. Also, a school like NYU looks at pieces of an application that are not just numbers....things like essays and recs, strength of your HS curriculum, and so on. </p>

<p>In any case, for a school like NYU, it would not be a two tier process because you can't go there academically if not admitted to Tisch artistically anyway. </p>

<p>For those students who had a counselor from school call and ask why a student was not admitted, you can't really PROVE that they got in artistically but were denied because of their SAT score. An adcom is going to look things over when someone calls for this information, and have to point to something in the package that was weak. Say it is the SAT score. That doesn't necessarily follow that if the SAT score were higher, the kid would be IN. They have too many talented kids for the slots available. When looking them all over, they had to pick and choose. Some students might have some weaknesses and some others had either different weaknesses or less weaknesses, whatever. They are building a class. If you took every kid who was denied acceptance, and then pointed to the one weak link in their overall application to the college, and said, well, if that one thing were a bit better, we'd take them. They would not have had room for them all. That is just the way it is. All the factors count in terms of being admitted. Some very talented people get denied at highly selective colleges and universities. You can be fantastic and still not get in. If you bother to apply to colleges with VERY low admit rates, that goes with the territory. It doesn't mean that if I only had had X or Y on my record, I could be IN. You could still have X or Y and STILL not get in because the admit rate is SOOOOO low. This same phenomena applies to elite college admissions such as the Ivy League. SOME students who are denied admission are HIGHLY qualified and have the right "stats". The school picked and chose who they wanted but it doesn't mean if the kid only had X or Y on his/her record, she'd have been admitted. They turn away many kids with a 1600 SAT (old tests) and who are valedictorian, for example.</p>

<p>If you are going to enter the highly selective college admissions process, you have to know what you are getting into. First, you must be a viable candidate in the ballpark. Otherwise, do not apply. Reaches are fine but should not be such far reaches to be impossible odds. Even IF you are in the ballpark, you have to realize if you are going to apply to schools with very low admit rates, that there is an element of chance involved and you could be very qualified but STILL not get in. People have to be realistic about those odds, even IF qualified. If you don't have one of the elements, such as good SAT scores, the odds become greater so it is important to have a realistic picture going into this process. </p>

<p>Students should have a balanced list of schools that is well targetted. The wait is long until April and it is hard but it is all part of the process. My older child didn't hear from any of her schools until April. While she didn't have to audition, there wasn't any prescreening of who should or shouldn't apply and do all she had to do to get in. For those who are auditioning, the audition is ONE piece of the admissions decision and that is part of the process. Some schools view the admissions decision in a whollistic fashion, even if they weight one piece more than another. Let me say that at Emerson, Syracuse, Ithaca, Penn State, CMU, BOCO, as well as at NYU my D had to go through the audition and had no indication if she passed academic muster. That's just how it was. However, upon applying, she had a rough idea which schools were academic reaches, matches and safeties. She just didn't pick out MT programs and ignore the rest of the odds of getting into the colleges. That is how one must build an appropriate college list. You apply, the school weighs all the factors, and you get a decision. It is the student's job to figure out which schools are appropriate for their list and if they choose to apply to academic reaches, to realize that they are JUST THAT and not count on them but go ahead if they want to give it a try. Just know the odds ahead of time and plan accordingly. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Several questions have been raised about admissions for NYU's Tisch Drama. As most know, it is a two tier application process. Students can either submit an NYU paper application or an NYU on-line application. Then the applicant signs up on-line for an artistic review (audition for actors/musical actors, an interview for designer/production directors). NYU applicant services analyzes the submitted materials and Tisch faculty members conduct the artistic review. Then these two processes are evaluated together to make the class. It is not necessarily an exact 50% split between the two evaluations. The process is more subtle than that and is worked out in concert by Tisch and NYU Central with an understanding of what is required to be a successful Drama student. The NYU admissions office has on staff those who have graduated from the Drama Program. The faculty conducting the artistic review do not tell applicants that they have been accepted because they do not know the outcome of the merging of the two processes. In fact, we are loathe to even compliment the students who impress us for fear of giving an impression that they will automatically be admitted when something arising later in the admission process may prevent that. And we do have 2,500 + applicants, so the process can get complicated. Good luck to all!</p>

<p>Sincerely,
Arthur Bartow
Artistic Director
Tisch Drama</p>

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<p>Mr. Bartow,</p>

<p>With all due respect, and I really mean that, I hope that you and your staff/faculty can come to an agreement about the facts.
It is very confusing to be told one thing and then another. I am a professional in this field and am paid to have the correct information for my services. When I do not, it makes me lose credibility.</p>

<p>If you want, you may PM or email me and I will explain in detail conflicting information that has come from your Tisch reps over the last two years.</p>

<p>Also, if you voluntarily read this board with frequency, it surprises me that you have the time. If you are prompted to read, I appologize for the distraction, as a man in your position probably has more pressing business. Although I do appreciate the attention you pay these students and parents in your sincere effort to clarify conflicting information.</p>

<p>Sincerely,
Mary Anna Austin</p>

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<p>I am really glad Mr. Bartow HAS come onto this forum three times. Each of the times he has come on had been to clarify misleading information that is bantered about here about Tisch. I think it is really positive to have someone come from the source and clarify it because as much as parents affiliated with the program try to state information to be helpful, it is sometimes still challenged. I very much doubt Mr. Bartow is spending his days reading CC. He is VERY busy as artistic director at Tisch. In fact, I believe the mainstage musical he is directing opens this evening. Since this is a public forum and many people read it, I would assume that a reader or lurker at the school may have read something and told him about it and suggesting he clarify it. These are public forums and these institutions are large and so it is understandable that someone at a college might read something and pass it on. At times, we have seen folks from OCU or Elon or Otterbein come on to clarify something here as well which doesn't mean they spend their day reading all the posts themselves. </p>

<p>My view is about the point you are bringing up about what your students were "told" at Tisch as to why they were not admitted......or that they were "admitted artistically but not academically".....I don't think there is ANY such thing officially. Nobody at Tisch or at many other schools either, is going to say you were in except for this or you were "accepted" artistically but not academically. If a parent pushes (I personally find this distasteful) after a decision is rendered, and tries to find out why at admissions or has a guidance counselor do that.....and the adcoms mention there wasn't any problem of note in the record on the artistic end.....her SATs were weak....etc....they are trying to give some indication but there is likely no one single piece, nor would they out and out state, "she was admitted artistically"....Now, if the person receiving that message walks away thinking...."my kid was IN but for her SATs"...that is their take on it. How many times have I read posts where people say it was X that denied them and if they had X they'd be in? It is not so simple. One person writes, the kid wasn't accepted due to her 1200 SAT. Sorry, but NYU Is not going to state that if the child's SAT were higher, she'd be in. If pushed to have someone say what was weak in the file, they might mention factors but that doesn't mean that with that one thing improved, they'd be in. They can't take everyone. They look at the whole picture. They do not have SAT cut offs either. I know two kids who got in with SATs below 1200....so there you go. Not real common but it happens. People WANT to latch onto some tangible piece that kept them out. Unless your student got something in writing that said she was "accepted artistically but because of her SAT's we did not admit her"....my feeling is that was that person's take on information that I'm guessing might have been that artistically she was strong but we were unable to admit her upon review of her entire application and upon choosing the class and finding the strongest students overall for that class....and they might have pointed out the weak SAT's if someone pushed for some tangibles. NYU doesn't go by numbers/stats alone. There are subtle differences and intangible things....be it in the essays, the background, the guidance counselor report, the rigor of the HS curriculum, the type of person and how they fit into the class. You can have someone with better stats be denied over someone with weaker stats but the person with weaker stats has something in their background to contribute to the class they are building. There are not just clear cut offs, if it were only that simple, particularly at selective colleges. </p>

<p>I can't imagine any faculty in the artistic review segment at Tisch giving an indication one way or another if a student would be admitted on the artistic end. In fact, my child had NO indication whatsoever. The person was noncommittal, as I think that it should be. </p>

<p>In one post on this thread, someone mentioned a girl who applied to Tisch KNOWING that her SATs were on the low side for NYU but chose to "apply anyway." Then that is the choice the student made and it should not come as a surprise if she wasn't admitted. They can't take everyone who is very talented. They have a very low acceptance rate. You can have EVERYTHING be real strong and still not make it in. And if you enter this process already knowing your "stats" are on the low end for Tisch, then you have to expect that might be an issue when they have to narrow down so many qualified and talented students. </p>

<p>Also, Mary Anna, unless you have had your own child applying to Tisch, you are getting this information from other parents and students second hand. </p>

<p>By the way, as a parent myself who had a kid apply to Tisch, I did not contact or talk to anyone about her at Tisch. She applied, auditioned, got in and we got the happy news, in the hospital, I might add. I really don't think a parent should be having discussions with faculty about why their child got in or not. That's my view. I also can't imagine their private coaches calling up and talking to faculty to get the low down on the college decision afterwards either. Do you have a child applying to Tisch? If so, I would let the process take its course and have your child be the one in contact with personnel at the school about their own admissions process. </p>

<p>I think the reason Arthur Bartow would be compelled to come onto this forum would be to clarify things. Just now, you have insinuated that his faculty are not credible. In previous threads, you wrote misleading information about their admissions process and acceptance rates. Why wouldn't someone from the university come on to clarify that? And how is his participation any different than when DoctorJohn or OCUMTInfo. or Elon Secretary comes on to clarify something? It hurts a school when misleading information is posted on a public forum. I think questioning the staff's credibility is a serious accusation. I wouldn't blame Mr. Bartow for coming on to clear that up. I don't know him personally, but I think it is quite valid for an administrator to want to set the record straight. He has only posted here in response to posts that were inaccurate or misleading, but otherwise has not participated. I'm glad he has. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Susan,
I appreciate everything you have said and agree with you. Thanks for all your attention to all things regarding Tisch. You are a valuable resource.</p>

<p>Although you have expressed inconsistant and confusing opinions on the recent topic of auditions from posts by me, Coachc, parents and other students, I am not iinterested in taking issue with you. I appreciate you for the correct information you bring to this board, of which there is plenty.</p>

<p>I am only interested in what I have been told by people officially representing the Universities (NYU and others) By the way, the only university I have conflicting info from is NYU.</p>

<p>Although you are a generous contributor here, you have made certain assumptions in this case and don't know the facts of either my references or CoachCs or any of my parents or students. </p>

<p>I look forward to the opportunity to discuss my expericences in private with Arthur Bartow if he chooses to speak with me. No one, not even Tisch, is above making mistakes or having their credibilty questioned. They need to own up to any misrepresentation on their part and speak to their staff, if appropriate.</p>

<p>We are all human and can make mistakes. Certainly myself.</p>

<p>Another note: We are involved in this arena because we love it. I understand that you are just trying to help. I think you are most helpful and look to your expertise often. I hope that I can continue to be a trusted advisor as well..</p>

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<p>Mary Anna,
Perhaps, then, you should have asked Mr. Bartow privately but instead you have posted these accusations publicly and therefore, it would beg a public response and clarification. </p>

<p>No, I don't know the facts of your students/parents. I posted what I know of the admissions process as someone who deals with the college admissions process. I think what I posted was consistant with the message that Mr. Bartow posted and he is officially representing the university. </p>

<p>If my posts have been confusing to you, I'm sorry if that is the case. I have tried to explain what I know about the process. You asked several times about admissions via the audition vs. the application and I explained how each college handles it differently in terms of the order that they do that in, the importance of each part, and even the selectivity factor on the academic end. While something I have said might appear confusing or inconsistant, I have kept to the same stance all along, which is based on the college admissions process as I know it. </p>

<p>If you have issues with NYU or Tisch, you should take it up with them directly but when you post information that might mislead on a public forum, even if not intentional, then those connected to the school will attempt to set the record straight, as has happened here several times recently, such as the thread to do with the admissions process and acceptance rates at Tisch and for CAP21, and so forth. It is important that information is correct on the forum, particularly when posters read information coming from those who they know are professionals in the field because they will take it as valid information. </p>

<p>I would agree that nobody is above making mistakes or having their credibility questioned. </p>

<p>I also think that it helps to share your expertise in the area where you have so much to give and that is to do with Acting. Your posts are received as someone "in the know" due to your profession, so you know what you are talking about when it come to acting, whereas that is not my field. In other matters, you are discussing things like all posters and might make mistakes about information, like anyone else could, of course, but your posts are taken in a different light as someone in the field. So, if there is information that might be incorrect or misleading, it stands to reason that someone who is the source of that information might come on to set the record straight, as Mr. Bartow has several times now. </p>

<p>We do want our readers on CC to have the correct information so the dialogue is important if there is confusion or inconsistancies. </p>

<p>I am not doubting your accounts, which I'm not clear if they were direct or through a second party (your students/parents) but was explaining the process and also how sometimes things are perceived by parents in these situations. I wasn't there and don't purport to know what happened with your students but am commenting on the process as I know it, and not about them necessarily. My intentions are to help those reading the discussion to understand the process. At times, when I think something is misleading, I have tried to clarify what I know. In some cases I am doing so as a college counselor trained in the admissions process and in certain instances, if the college being discussed is the one my own kid attends where I have some more knowledge, I bring that to the discussion.</p>

<p>Respectfully,
Susan</p>

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<p>Just wanted to clarify something. The girl I was referring to who did not get into CAP21 due to "low SAT scores" (and I admit, it IS secondhand information, albeit from her best friend!), I have NO IDEA what her SAT's were. I never said they were 1200; I used an example where student x and student y were equally "talented" and everything was equal except, for example, their SATs; 1200 vs 1350. These were random numbers, not an actual case! Just wanted to clarify.</p>

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<p>No problem Jill. Thanks, though, for clarifying. I think the essence was that it is hard to pinpoint one thing. They look at the whole package and the needs of the class. If this very talented girl had SATs that were below the mid range for NYU, she had to know going into the admissions process, that her odds were slimmer but possible. And so it goes. We all know such very talented kids who did not get into a specific program as they take such a small percentage of those who apply. My hope is that if she is as talented as you say, that she ended up at another fine program and is happy now. Often that is the case. Some of these outcomes are just to hard to analyze. That's why we see time and again, someone talented who gets into CAP but not CMU but someone who gets into UMich but not CAP and someone else who gets into UMich but not Syracuse, another at CCM but not CAP, one at NYU but not Emerson, someone at UMich but didn't get into Penn State. It isn't always because they were not qualified enough but they just were not chosen when they built a class and you can't always point to one reason why, but simply low odds. But they did end up SOME where. That's the thing to remember! It works out in the end, usually. Luckily there is more than one great program where a kid can be happy and really learn their craft and grow/learn as a musical theater actor.
Susan</p>

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<p>I think we need to remember that this is a thread for parents and their thoughts, emotions and opinions. If you want absolute information, you need to contact the school. We're all just posting what we understand and posting that to the best of our ability. We can't be held liable for whether it is misleading. We're trying not to be misleading, but we're just parents and trainers and not experts on these schools. I don't feel anyone here should be chastised for posting anything misleading. That certainly would not have been their intent. I personally think we should have a thread that is simply for us to share feelings and information and be able to share them freely and perhaps a separate forum for college administrators, etc. to post information that is expected to be exact. But, as to reading this thread, no one posting here should be expected to be accountable for perfect information. That is what the school websites are for. No one should ever depend on this forum for absolute information. That would be very naive. I wouldn't even completely count on posts by college administration. I'm sure they are absolutely who they say they are, but there's no assurance of that. We have to each be responsible to get our own information from the schools. We read this forum to get general info and share feelings, but we have to be responsible for our own knowledge regarding each school. I've learned a lot here, but certainly don't have the time to spend here that many seem to have. So many other involvements.......but this forum has been a real help as far as general info. And I hope we can continue to see it as just that.....general info. We don't want to reach the point that we're afraid to post anything we hear or learn for fear it might not be accurate. Of course, the intent is accuracy and we want to be able to be helpful without being analyzed.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
We don't want to reach the point that we're afraid to post anything we hear or learn for fear it might not be accurate.

[/quote]
Word. It can also be useful to go ahead and post whatever because it gives others the opportunity to dispel misconceptions. I'm sure whatever is said is well-meaning and contentiousness should be avoided in correcting errors in understanding. This is a stressful time of year for everybody going through the process. Yes, the waiting is more stressful than the auditions themselves - for students, parents, and teachers - and everybody's psyche is a little sensitive right now, so let's all be genuinely nice. I'd hate to revisit the vituperativeness that started flying around here this time last year. I'm not really even specifically talking about anything on this particular thread ... Just the forum in general. Y'all peace out! K? :)</p>

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<p>So true. We are all on edge and all have the best intentions. I just want us to be able to share and learn from one another. Heading out for a weekend with girlfriends. Hope someone gets good news this weekend.</p>