<p>Calmom, you need to backup and realize that the real correlation is with education of parents and scores. Of course income follows with higher levels of education. And then we need to understand that genes and IQ level are correlated with education level. So there is no mystery that kids whose parents have high IQs, get good educations and make good incomes will, as a group, score best. This is where affirmative action comes in, kids from disadvantaged backgrounds of all sorts are understood to have potential with lowere scores.</p>
<p>But will the world change, will employes see your average State school as they see Harvard? Not likely. But kids like myself who don't point fingers and call it lack of equity can actually be included at top schools! For many of us they are cheaper than our State (or in my case, National) schools! Market the myth? Show me a State school that offers what the top US schools do. You can make this and us and them world or you can join the meritocracy.</p>
<p>Calmom, as a resident of a state with a crappy Public U, I disagree most vociferously. The top Public U's are considered every bit as prestigious here as the top privates... Michigan, most of California, Texas, Virginia, you know the list. The issue is that if you don't live in one of those states and you have a high achieving child, do you reconcile yourself and your kid to heading off to State U. which can manage to upgrade its workout rooms, basketball arena, and parking lots every couple of years but never seems to have a dime for a nanotechnology lab, a full professor in the Arts (most are adjuncts or BFA's with Assistant professor rank), or to fund fellowships in the humanities? You're creating a false dichotomy.... the issue isn't Harvard vs. Michigan.</p>
<p>I don't buy the argument that the privileged class has marketed this myth. The voters and politicians marketed this myth by dumbing down public education in favor of bread and circuses (you should see the salad bar and ice cream choices at our state U's dining halls... and cappucino's and latte's for everyone 24/7). If a kid wants to study phys ed ( a VERY popular choice at our state U. although it has a fancier name) then great... but Classics? Renaissance History? Better pack your bags and head out of state. The same kids who were cheated during the giant PC dumbing down of K-12 education get cheated again at University.</p>
<p>Blossom, if the family is working class - lets say $60K annual income - then private education at the top schools - which don't offer merit aid - is simply prohibitive. Those kids don't get a full ride with need based aid - they end up with a discount, so that their parents are expected to pay perhaps $25K/year rather than the $40K full cost - but to that working class family that $25K is a hardship. The only way to pay is for the family to go heavily into debt. Meanwhile - the kid may qualify for significant scholarships at less prestigious private colleges or at public universities, which typically waive out of state tuition for the strongest applicants. </p>
<p>So the reality is that the doors of the Ivies aren't really open to the middle class, because the need-based aid isn't sufficient to even the playing field financially. </p>
<p>There are other doors open -- that's exactly the point I am making -- I don't think a kid has to go to Harvard. I think a kid can probably get a terrific education at St. Olaf's. But the idea has been sold that the kid who can qualify for a full ride scholarship at a 2nd tier college somehow ought to go for the designer label of a college he can't afford. There are a lot of contributing reasons to that mindset, but one of those is class - the idea that an Ivy education is associated with the upper-crust of America. </p>
<p>It's not just a money thing. There's also an east coast/west coast (and middle, and south) thing that comes into play - so there are cultural and regional as well as class-based issues.</p>
<p>Calmom, I don't know the aid policies of all top private schools, so the cost MAY be prohibitive at some, but not all. That $25000 figure seems very high--have you tried the aid calculators on some of the top-colleges sites? Maybe if the family had quite a lot in savings? Don't know how you arrived at that number, but in any case, the top universities have improved their aid policies immensely in recent years. Princeton has a no-loan policy. For a middle class family as you have described, the student will probably have work study and a summer job, but if he/she chooses to go to Princeton, it is feasible, most definitely so. Also, merit aid from outside scholarships can be used to alleviate or offset the work-study or student contribution. Sometimes an Ivy may be a great fit for a middle-class student, other times another school may be a better fit or there may be an enticing offer elsewhere, but please know that the Ivies are indeed open to the middle class.</p>
<p>Unless you have significant savings, there is no way you would pay $25,000/yr on a $60,000 salary. But Calmom, what you said in an early post seems ro be at the heart of things. You said your son felt uncomfortable among the wealthy at his college. Why? What was the difference in lifestyle/attitude/thinking that put him off? This what I have a hard time understanding a a kid from a rural public school who had seen little of the world who feels so welcome at my college. My friends are from every imaginable background. My girlfriend from several generations of ivy grads and high school at Exeter.</p>
<p>Cricket - I gave a hypothetical figure based on experience. Obviously it depends on what other assets the family has. Most private colleges look at assets like the value of the family home -- and that can be particularly hurtful for the family in terms of the financial aid calculation. After all - it isn't fair to expect the family to sell their home to pay for college. It also gets very complicated -- and usually very difficult -- when there are divorced parents or blended families -- or when one or both parents are self-employed. </p>
<p>The bottom line is, on average, a family with a $70K annual income can expect a FAFSA EFC of about $15K annually -- and the private colleges generally do not pay up to the FAFSA EFC, because they use different formulas and count additonal assets. So if I was giving financial advice, I would tell that family to be prepared to pay out $20K annually for college - they might get lucky and get better financial aid -- but I know from experience that some of the offers my son got for need-based aid were far worse, or weighted heavily toward loans and work study (which are not really financial aid -- it costs MORE money to take out loans, even though the cost burden is spread over time, because you have pay interest and loan origination fees). </p>
<p>The financial aid calculators on line are a big help, but they really only give you a ballpark. What the colleges actually offer is a different story. Also, keep in mind that college financial aid does not really pay for a lot of additional expenses, like travel -- the financial aid awards have a travel allowance based on one round trip a year - if a kid plans to come home for Christmas, Thanksgiving, & spring break - then there are 4 round trips to pay for. That is simply one more example of an expense that rich people hardly give a second thought to, but can be very difficult for a family on a tight budget. </p>
<p>I think that is the ultimate distinguishing factor about "class". Poor and working class kids grow up with a constant awareness of expenses and costs; discretionary purchase generally require a good deal of planning or some sacrifice; there isn't a lot of leeway to deal with unexpected emergencies. When they go off to college, their parents are sending them a monthly allowance - they are expected to earn their own pocket money, and time spent working at campus jobs cuts into their social time as well as their study time. Kids from more privileged backgrounds are often quite unaware of these issues -- to them it seems like no big deal to pay the cost of a taxi or to go shopping for clothes.</p>
<p>Canuckeh - you asked what put my son off -- it is that kind of blissfully unaware, unthinking attitude. Kids would make comments to him about his work-study job that were simply unthinking - but were actually derogatory. For example, most of the work study jobs available to freshman on his campus were very low paying -- some kid might make a comment to the extent that they would never work for something that pays so little - completely unaware that my son had no choice. If my son tried to explain that he needed the money - they just didn't get it. People who come from privilege often casually say or do things that are very insulting -- it isn't just kids -- there are several comments that posters to this thread have made that are in the same, unthinking vein. They don't intend this -- they aren't even aware of what they are saying -- but it is frustrating. There is also an air of superiority that many carry -- again probably without being aware of it -- that is just often reflected in the comments they make.</p>
<p>As an example, but this is only an Estimate and there are a lot of variables to figure in, but for a family of four, $60000 gross, one child in college, other child at home but not in private school, 50-yr.-old oldest parent, $3000 in student savings/checking and $20,000 in parents' savings/checking with no other real estate but home: the AID comes out to about $35,000-36,000 per year (no loans, but work study and grant), with the family contribution in the neighborhood of $7500-8500. If the savings are $50,000 the contribution is about $10,200-11,200. The value of the home is not considered. DISCLAIMER: JUST AN ESTIMATE! Go to Princeton cite, financial aid, and plug in your own figures. This is just to give an idea.</p>
<p>Cricket, I really wonder why your son had such a different experience than I have. Particular school culture? I'm at Yale. About half of my friends have work study jobs as I do. I also have a second job helping a prof with research to afford the trips home and have extra money. Everyone here is sensitive to the fact that we don't all have unlimited spending money. If anything, the kids with money keep it under wraps.</p>
<p>Sorry Calmom, I was figuring aid while you posted.
The point is this: There are middle-income kids at the Ivies. I'm not saying these kids aren't working, and I'll guess that most were hard workers to get where they are to begin with, but they wanted to go to their schools, and the schools make it possible for them to do so.</p>
<p>Cricket -- Princeton is unique that it gives better financial aid than most colleges, because they don't count home equity and they don't require students to take out loans. But your figures are total pie in the sky as far as most other colleges. I am a single parent with another kid at home, and when my son was in college and my AGA was about $55K my FAFSA was about $12K-$15K - and that was without weighing in the value of my home. I did not have much in savings -either. Probably overall I had less than your example. </p>
<p>Also, in my mind a loan is a cost, not an award. I didn't count my son's student loans as an award, but something that was part of our burden. In other words, a college financial aid award might say the EFC is $15000 and that is fully met, but include a $3000 loan and $2000 work study grant. That means the family needs to pay $20k. Loans need to be paid back, and work study money doesn't materialize except in the form of a paycheck.</p>
<p>You also said "There are middle-income kids at the Ivies." I still don't think you get the point -- I'm not talking about individual cases, I am talking about overall numbers and percentages. Overall, the student body at the Ivies does not reflect the average demogaphics for the nation. There is a much, much higher number of very wealthy or high end middle class than in the population at large. I didn't express an opinion as to whether that is a bad thing or just a fact -- but you can't deny that.</p>
<p>Calmom, agreed, on loans. I am not a fan of graduating with huge debt. Some students/families decide to take out loans to attend their colleges, and that is their prerogative. But these days, in an effort to attract the best students no matter what their means, the financial aid policies have gotten much more generous at top schools and it is even possible to have no loans whatsoever. FWIW, I have heard that Brown has earmarked a huge endowment to be used to allow their lowest-income students to graduate debt-free. At Princeton, all students are able to graduate debt free and Princeton's actual aid is known to be very close to what is estimated. These schools are not out to cheat their students, but to make it possible for them to attend. Yes, there is money to pay. Yes, these very students might even get stipends elsewhere, but --and as Canuckeh attests-- a lot of kids/families work it out with the fantastic aid at these schools, and very happily so. Check it out for your next child, IF the schools are ones he/she might consider.</p>
<p>Overall numbers...they're going up, and hopefully will continue to climb since the aid has improved and as more students realize that these schools are indeed options.</p>
<p>I didn't say that lowest income families don't get great aid. I said that middle class families don't get it. If the financial aid is better with kid #2, that's great news, but it must be a brand new thing because there were a lot of kids posting here last spring who were very disappointed with their financial aid awards. At least one I remember who opted to go to Vandy rather than Yale because Yales' offer was significantly less, whereas Vandy's offer was sweetened with merit aid.</p>
<p>The number might have changed but at least a few years ago there was a $50K cutoff on the FAFSA form - under $50K, assets and savings were not considered at all -- over $50K they're added in. So the $50K earnings mark was a big delineator where there was a big fall off in award value.</p>
<p>The huge $25,000 EFC estimate for a $70,000 income is wrong.</p>
<p>Our son was admitted to five private colleges, including Ivies, and while the EFC of one was off the charts, the other four were within a few hundred dollars of each other. We filled out a Profile form, also. We don't have any other assets except for our house, and modest savings. The financial aid package was this:</p>
<p>Parents pay $8,000-8,500 a year. Son takes out $5,000 loan each year, and earns $2,000 a year. We found this doable. If working class or middle class parents--or whatever you would call us--have lived modestly, and have not had bad luck with health, or job problems, they can afford this.</p>
<p>Calmom, I know you didn't say lowest income. The Brown info. was for anyone out there to whom it may apply.</p>
<p>I'm not surprised that Vandy made a sweet offer to someone accepted also at Yale; many schools offer merit aid to lure top students. I am not familiar with Yale's financial-aid policies, but certainly a student would have to weigh the options, in this case probably loans versus no loans/ generous grants? We can agree that we wish there were MORE middle-income kids at the Ivies. The aid policies are more generous at some schools than others, but it is most definitely possible for middle-income students to go to Ivies, if they so choose. </p>
<p>Canuckeh, I'm glad things are great for you at Yale!</p>
<p>To Farawayplaces1 - I don't want to belabor this too much, but the point is that I didn't say EFC might be $25k - I said COSTS would be that. I honestly don't know why you had an EFC of $8K on a $70 income while I had a FAFSA EFC of $15K on a $55K income - maybe you've got more kids or are older or it's the fact that my income is from self-employment or that there is a noncustodial parent in the picture whose income gets weighed in even though he doesn't contribute to college costs. But the point is that with your numbers, your annual cost as a family is $15K, with $7K shifted to your son. </p>
<p>I do think that the way colleges present their financial aid packages is terribly misleading, because they do treat loans and work study as if it were a grant, and use those amounts to say they are meeting EFC.</p>
<p>Faraway places doesn't have a family EFC of $8K
If parents are paying $8K student had $5K loan and earns $2K summers
That is 15K for EFC
If you are going anywhere but PRinceton or Brown you are probably going to have student loans unless you can afford to pay the whole thing.
families need to be aware when kids are young that while financial aid is available for college , families are going to have to bear at least part of the cost of education.
Seems fair to me.</p>
<p>I didn't say it wasn't fair, I said it was cost-prohibitive for many working class families.</p>
<p>I think that part of the "class" assumption is that it is easy for people to plan and save for college, therefore everyone should do it. But the less money a family makes, the less discretionary income, the more vulnerable they are to unexpected crises - like temporary loss of work, family illnesss, etc. -- and the less likely they are to be able to afford to shoulder additional debt or pay what the college deems their EFC. </p>
<p>I didn't say that working class families ought to be entitled to send their kids to Ivy schools. To the contrary, I said that it didn't matter. The "class" thing is a societal myth that Ivy-league educated people are somehow better or smarter - coupled with admission policies and tuition policies that are guaranteed to maintain a these institutions as primarily bastions of the upper class. I don't think that's going to change. </p>
<p>I find it somewhat intriguing that so many posters here take my statement of facts as being a complaint. Why are people who are themselves upper class in terms of income levels so afraid to admit it - or to admit that the schools they choose have admission policies that tend to preserve the status quo?</p>
<p>"But the idea has been sold that the kid who can qualify for a full ride scholarship at a 2nd tier college somehow ought to go for the designer label..." (Calmom, top of page 4.)</p>
<p>While addressing that "the doors to the Ivies aren't really open to the middle class," I didn't say anything about what Calmom said above, but Faraway and Emerald addressed this in part, I think, in that they both are quite willing to pay for the education that is chosen. Why should a student be compelled to go to ANY other college but the one of his choosing? Using Calmom's example, he can go to the tier 2 or to the "designer label" school but who are we to say which is better for him? That's his call. But "designer label"... that is actually offensive to people of all sorts who are going to what they believe to be the best school FOR THEM, not that it is better by virtue of its name. So, middle-income kids manage to get into top schools, manage to pay for top schools (the same schools where their numbers do not reflect the demographics of the nation), these students are willing to work very hard and they have families who are willing to work very hard so that they can attend the schools of their choosing, and yet we put down their choices as going after a label? Calmom, you wanted to make the point that "there are other doors open", but why shouldn't THIS door be open as well, without being put down, if that is what is chosen?</p>