Avoid SOM with doctoral programs?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>When we visited one University this year my daughter interviewed the applied music professor and found that many of the top chairs in the ensembles were held by doctoral students. At yet another University where there is no doctoral program in music she observed that underclassmen were able to perform in some of the top ensembles. Her private teacher said that the presence of "graduate students' shows a strong music program. If one wants to major in music ed (not performance) might it be good to avoid schools with doctoral students so you stand a chance to get on the stage in some of the ensembles while you are an undergrad? We're looking at mid to large public universities with fairly strong music programs but want to be sure the undergraduate experience (especially for music ed) is a good one with respect to having performance opportunities.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>Those are certainly questions you need to ask about the programs you look at. Many top programs do not have post graduate students to compete with. Some schools do not let music ed students take spots from performance majors. Some schools let anyone no matter their major into all ensembles, or only some ensembles. It does vary a great deal. I would disagree that if graduate level students are present it means anything about the level of the program. </p>

<p>I would suggest you submit a list of specific questions that make those issues clear. Most programs are very happy to answer you and make sure you know the situation.</p>

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<p>imamiger, I can’t recall your d’s instrument. More of a concentration in band programs, rather than orchestra if my addled brain serves me. </p>

<p>Let me link to a prior post of mine from one of your earlier threads: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062396190-post24.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062396190-post24.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Covers some of your questions, and I’ll expand by saying this is one of those school specific, ask the department (and current students) about both the policy and the reality. Some programs treat mus ed majors the same as performance majors, some don’t. Lesson times, applied faculty, sometimes even ensemble placement or choice may be dictated by major. Tiered ensembles, multiple ensembles can be the case at larger programs, just by the nature of pure numbers. </p>

<p>As for grad/doctoral students, again this is program specific as to whether they get top dibs, or seated ahead of underclassmen. Some seat soleky by audition. This was the case for my son, who shard first stand or held the principal spot with grad sudents and I believe one doctoral candidate throughout his tenure, beginning with his first audition. The program also did not differentiate between ed and perf candidates (except the ed majors had less of an total credit requirement in ensemble participation, and maybe 3-3 1/2 years versus 4 of private instruction, due to the constraints of the student teaching semester.) Master class, performance opportunities, most gigs, faculty contact was basically determined by talent level, not accumlated credits of undergrad/postgrad status.</p>

<p>A nice mix of grad/doctoral students can be beneficial. It provides another level of interaction and peer learning from students typically 4 or 5 years older, with potentially a higher level of skills, and experience. They may have taken a year or two off to try and audition into an orchestra, tried their hands at teaching privately or had a studio; Masters students in an MMEd program may even have had actual classroom teaching experience and can provide real world insights. Large grad based, grad centered programs may not be the spot for an incoming freshman, but a balanced program can be a beneficial learning experience.</p>

<p>Again, this is addressed from an instrumental, not vocal standpoint. There are those far wiser than I to counsel about the vocal perspective.</p>

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<p>From that Vocal Performance standpoint, the first year, one will be very lucky to get a chance to be in the chorus of an opera scene.It’s pretty much the same for the first semester of sophomore year, but if one has an unusual voice or is a type in demand, it could happen that you could share, or have one night, singing a role in a scene. By junior year, again, sharing a role is quite possible and as a senior, you are right in there pitching with the grad students and artist diploma candidates (of course, all of this depends on there being some of the latter two and wouldn’t be the case at a school such as Oberlin who only has undergrads).This is also not the case if one is male- they are so in demand that they could find themselves with a line or two right off! Voice is a different proposition because it does depend upon maturity and also upon learning and performing in the style which is taught at that particular school- a case of “putting one’s stamp upon a student”, so to speak.</p>

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<p>Unusual voice? Is that like the opera star that is male but sings exactly like a female soprano? Forget his name but I often wonder if he is a one of a kind or if there are that kind of singers floating around and only he became famous? Kind of off topic so pardon my curiousity.</p>

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<p>Castrato Soprano. The last Castrato Soprano was in the early 1900’s</p>

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<p>^I thought Castrato was a capo, eliminated by an underling. Didn’t Corrado (Junior) make his bones avenging the murder? :D</p>

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<p>YAH bingo Violadad…It was Jimmy “hi-notes” Castrato. That was in a flashback in the first season. He didn’t have the “palle” to take on the Soprano clan.</p>

<p>sorry OP…a little
off track!</p>

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<p>No this guy was on 60 minutes and a few other shows about 2 years ago. Looked like a tenor sang like a soprano, not only high but exactly like a women. I don’t think he had been castratoed. He got a great deal of work they said but mainly overseas if I remember correctly.</p>

<p>I googled it</p>

<p>A sopranist is a male singer who sings in the soprano vocal range. In music, an alto or contralto is a singer with a vocal range somewhere between a tenor and a mezzo-soprano. … In music, a tenor is a male singer with a high voice (although not as high as the modern countertenor). … A baritenor is a male voice having a tessitura between the baritone and the tenor. … In music, a baritone (from Greek βαρ</p>

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<p>You should listen to Jorg Washinski on Utube doing “Sopranist & orch. / Sanctus (Missa Cantate) by Thomas Bloch”. Some other pieces that amazed me as well. I would skip his attempt at Summertime, did not work for me. The Trumpet was good.</p>

<p>I guess I am not supposed to give the link? But you can search for his name or that piece. </p>

<p>Sometimes he sounds like he is from the Vienna boys choir, sometimes just like a lady.</p>

<p>Sopranist Patrick Husson sings even higher and more female sounding, also on utube.</p>

<p>Yet another Philippe Jaroussky - Vivaldi aria, if you can close your eyes and not think it is a women singing I would be shocked.</p>

<p>I guess there is a whole world out there doing this with plenty of work.</p>

<p>I am finding this very interesting and entertaining</p>

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<p>I am not particulary an expert on the voice world, but I believe the person is referring to some of the countertenors out there, whose range can go up into the Soprano range (not sure quite how high)…there is one guy I remember seeing interviewed, who is this big African American guy, built like a football player, who has this incredible high voice. They are different then the castrati used to be, they basically kept the voice of a young boy, which has a range almost as strong as a female soprano (I seem to recall that Castrati voices were like boys voices in that they didn’t have the depth that an adult female voice has, but I am not expert). But the countertenors can sound like a woman soprano, at least to my ears.Handel wrote quite a bit for countertenors,many of his operas and oratorios use them I believe;)</p>

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<p>Back to the OPs question. I’ll give an alternate opinion. DS went to schools with grad programs. He found that these more grad students were TERRIFIC mentors to the undergrads and he learned a great deal from them. When he was a grad student himself, he gave back to the undergrads in much the same way. I’m speaking instrumental where the studios at DS’s schools were very collegial. Did he get to play in the top orchestra his freshman year…yes…once…fourth seat. But he DID a lot of playing and learning alongside of these grad musicians.</p>

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<p>My understanding was that castrati voices perhaps didn’t have the depth of women’s voices, but they had plenty of vocal power. Of course, what survives of the only castrati to have recorded, Alessandro Moreschi, is not that impressive to my ear.</p>

<p>Technically Radu Marian and Jorge Cano have endocrinological issues that make them the equivalent of castrati. Michael Maniaci went through puberty, but his vocal chords didn’t develop properly, so he sings a full soprano range.</p>

<p>Philippe Jaroussky is a pretty amazing sopranist.</p>

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<p>“grad students were TERRIFIC mentors” </p>

<pre><code>Thumper1 brings up a great point. D considered her association with grad students (as an undergrad) a vital component of her undergrad education. The Vocal Pedagogy students and Collaborative Piano students ESPECIALLY. She never considered the presence of a strong grad program a disadvantage.
</code></pre>

<p>(and as an “offender” I promise I will try and drag this thread back to the OP’s original important question!)</p>

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<p>David Daniels is the counter tenor I believe you are referring to who was profiled on “60 Minutes”. A quite funny mention of him is in the song written for Mezzo, Susan Graham, entitled, “I Can Be A Sexy Lady”, which you can also hear on YouTube.
Trumpet, I wasn’t thinking of anything quite so esoteric when I said “unusual”, rather, I was referring to a definite mezzo, baritone or bass, all of which are not as common in the late teens, therefor, can be in more demand for schools. Your list of “Googled” voice types is all well and good, but it’s not nearly so cut and dried. For example,“alto” is almost never used (outside of those ubiquitous “Messiah” programs at holiday time!), except in a choral capacity. True contraltos are rarer than hen’s teeth- I think the only time I’ve heard a part especially written for one(in recent years) was in the new opera,“Dr. Atomic”. The female voice parts have shifted, along with the moveable “A”, which wasn’t fixed at 440 until the 20th century <a href=“http://www.wam.hr/Arhiva/US/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wam.hr/Arhiva/US/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
and Mozart wouldn’t have thought of Cherubino, for example, as a mezzo, but rather, as just a soprano- and although we now assign the role to a “Mezzo-Soprano”, in choral terms, that part would fall within the range of a second soprano with the shift in the “A”. Confused now?! :slight_smile:
As for grad students, I think there are points could be made either for or against. My D adores performing and sought a school where she would have ample opportunity. They also have a few grad students and Artist Diploma candidates and although the majority of the big roles go to those older students, she now feels that the chance to work alongside them a blessing rather than a curse! At least, in her situation, because the school is so small, they are mixed together in Studio Class and the older students have been so gracious and willing to share their knowledge, there isn’t a huge divide between the undergrads and the others. She’s now very glad that she has them around!</p>