<p>My experience in college was that the heavier drinkers were those who did NOT drink in high school. The freedom of college and easy access to alcohol led to some alcohol abuse. I drank in high school- not really binges- and when I got to college it was not that big of a deal. Maybe things have changed??</p>
<p>Then, it would be in the best interest of the good students if the guidance counselors identified the boozers in their college recommendation letters.</p>
<p>It's not like the people at the high schools AND the colleges don't know who the hardcore boozers are. Williams officials have stated that they have studied several hundred alcohol poisoning health admission records.</p>
<p>I see a lot of lip service to "the drinking problem", but I'm not seeing any real will to get at the heart of the matter: what kind of students are you admitting?. Banning kegs at frat parties is just a joke. That's PR window dressing.</p>
<p>Weschler's Harvard School of Public Health survey data shows that college binge drinkers were overwhelmingly high school binge drinkers. About 75% of of high school binger drinkers binge drink in college, compared to 25% of non high-school binge drinkers. The high school non-bingers tend to binge more often at colleges with high binge drinking rates.</p>
<p>The only correlation with binge drinking that was higher was students living in residential fraternities. These students binge drink at a rate of 78% to 80%.</p>
<p>I read somewhere (CC?) an article about college drinking that mentioned the incredible UNDERREPORTING of drinking due to misunderstanding of portion size. College JR. is drinking a marguerita in a 12 oz. tumbler - and counts it as one drink. The gist of the report was that there is even more drinking than reported due to college student's interpretation of what "1" drink was.</p>
<p>Think about this scenario. Acme Academy has sent three kids a year to Elite College, like clockwork for generations.</p>
<p>In looking at their alcohol abuse health and infraction records, Elite College officials see that Acme Academy grads have been contributing to the problem at a high rate.</p>
<p>Director of Admissions from Elite schedules a meeting with the Headmaster at Acme Academy and informs him that his school has been sending too many boozers, so Elite is going to take a hiatus from accepted Acme students.</p>
<p>You don't think this would get people taking the problem a little more seriously? Without those regular as clockwork Elite College admissions, Acme Academy loses its panache.</p>
<p>I-Dad, "obliquely confirm" and "suggest" lead to guilt by implication. You may have to believe anything you want to believe, but this is very different from quoting 45% as a hard fact. </p>
<p>I also have to believe that Williams has taken a hard look at drinking on campus. This has been clearly and transparently communicated by the college administration and well reported in the Record. I applaud them for taking action. </p>
<p>When I was on campus last October there were posters all over advising student that the result of a recent survey (which I believe was the Sokolow and Berkowitz study) showed that the average Williams student consumed 1-4 drinks in an evening. The point of this was that binge drinking was not as prevalent as perceived and that students shouldn't feel peer pressure to binge drink because their peers were actually consuming 1-4 drinks. </p>
<p>Bad things happen at good colleges. Those that don't have drinking issues may have problems with sex, drugs and rock and roll. I can cite a case of substance abuse or agressive behavior at just about every college in America. I don't think it's possible to talk about drinking without the commenting on the prevalence of drugs on campus. It seems to me that those schools that have drinking issues are light on the drugs. Those that are light on drinking lean toward drug use.</p>
<p>Substance abuse is a country-wide problem; drinking is just one side of the coin.</p>
<p>As some of us send our kids off in the fall for the first time...</p>
<p>Let us say that we have an up-to-now non-drinking (not tee-totalling personality, but just not a big partier/drinker) S/D. </p>
<p>Let us say they are not going to BYU, but maybe Swat (treated in this thread as "low risk") or Williams, Amherst, Tulane, Lehigh (treated in this thread as higher risk) or XXX University w. very high risk characteristics (rural, % Greek etc.).</p>
<p>As parents, do we figure we've done our job and it is now time to reap what we've sown? Do we cross our fingers? I am assuming that a sit-down lecture is worthless. How quickly will the eyes roll back into the head if we want to have any kind of talk re binge drinking?</p>
<p>Since the colleges are not going to change their admission profile for our 2009 kids (if ever), what do we do to enhance the chances that our kids will stay -as they have been - non-binge drinkers?</p>
<p>jmmom, I think your question is a much more constructive approach to this issue than trying to identify "boozers" in the admission process.</p>
<p>interesteddad: not letting qualified people into a college because they drink is a stupid idea. While we are at it why not decide to admit people based on their political party? If they are qualified and get the work done there should be no problem. If they aren't and they get in they will fail out. If it is really a big deal there are schools that heavily monitor such habits and will take action against offenders. If you don't like how a certain school deals with it that school is not for you.</p>
<p>WHY???</p>
<p>Why is it that drinking is such a huge part of the social scene at almost all colleges across the country? Seriously... I just don't understand. I've NEVER had to drink to have a good time, I've never had to mess up my brain chemistry in ANY way to have a good time.. i Just could never understand why people do stuff like that. Is there any reason why, specifically in college drinking becomes such a huge part of social life? is it because of all the sudden freedom?</p>
<p>jmmom, I have had more than one opportunity to talk about alchohol abuse to college students. I am relatively sure that my speeches were well received and easily forgotten, but it is possible that one or two students found an acorn in there somewhere. I can't remember it all but I'll try to give you the gist.</p>
<p>I started each talk with a conversation about consequences if you choose to drink (fill in other vice of choice,it still works). Each action however innocent it appears at first will have consequences. Not can,will. The action of having a cocktail leads to a consequence. Unlike the somewhat predictable consequence of rolling a bowling ball at ten pins, 0-10 pins will fall, the consequence of taking an altering substance is less predictable. It is this unpredictability that causes the problem. What causes this unpredictability?</p>
<p>Dosage. What is the concentration of alchohol in the drink? Once you decide that you are going to engage in altering substances, take control of the variables. Don't leave your drink unattended, mix your own or watch it be mixed, or stick to pre-measured drinks or beer.</p>
<p>Judgment. Your basis for decision making is as a sober person. Not an altered person. After two drinks your judgment may still be your judgment but it most definitely will not be the same judgment. Make your decisons prior to drinking and reinforce them throughout the evening. (I will not drive. I will not ride with Ozzy. I will not go to the ATM. I will not spend next semester's tuition on a stripper named Kiki.)</p>
<p>Environment.Control your environment and don't vary. Be aware of the risks inherent with a location or group of people , or most likely a changed location or group of people (see judgment above). A substantial amount of the dangers associated with college age drinking is the where. While being intoxicated on campus can be threatening to your career there, a similar choice to stumble drunk alone down 6th Street after the bars close is like being in the same place wearing a necklace of day-glo hundred dollar bills. You will not make it to your car. Guaranteed.</p>
<p>It was and is my intent to tell them that they are empowered to make the choice to drink or not to drink. If they do choose to drink, have a plan and stick to it, control the dose, and control who is around you that can do you harm (including one or more individuals in a private or remote setting). JMO, but that's about what mine has heard/will hear again.</p>
<p>My D just returned from Amherst and we had a long talk. She says she is going there, but will probably have to find others who want to go to the movies on Friday night, or go by herself, because she is not a party-er. At least they have cable! One of the girls there for the admit overnight said she saw a couple kids smoking pot in the hallway of the substance-free dorm. She has decided to request a substance free dorm, and hope it stays that way. Luckily, the school has restarted the Quiz Bowl Team, which my DD loves, as she has captained her HS team for 4 years. Her friends get together and play trivia games. So, she plans on joining that team, and maybe continue in her own venue with them. As I told her, she will find others like her there, as well, but I am still worried, not about her drinking or taking drugs, but about fitting in. At least there are 55% who don't. She will find her niche there. As long as the college is aware of the problem, maybe it will act to help solve the situation.</p>
<p>Momrath:</p>
<p>The Williams Record reported last year that alcohol related visits to the Health Center averaged 84 per year over each of the last five years. This does not include students who were sent directly to the hospital by ambulance, a number that various reports have described as alarming. However, nobody at the college claims to have access to the number of ambulance transports (something I find impossible to believe).</p>
<p>I asked the Head of Health Services at my daughter's school how many hospital transports they had had the previous school year. She gave me the exact number. I also know the number for this year from following the school newspaper -- it's a newsworthy event.</p>
<p>I have seen drinking data from the COFHE surveys published by a college. It is very detailed with breakdowns of non-drinkers and drinker, average number of times drinking during the semester, etc. -- all broken down by class. Many of the schools we talk about here are COFHE members. They have this data. I also believe that any surveyed college can get the data for their school from the Weschler Harvard studies and release it if they choose.</p>
<p>I do not believe you are necessary correct about an inverse relationship between drinking and drug use. </p>
<p>Swarthmore, which is in the lower range for drinking (still a potential concern) had 3 drug law arrests and 7 drug law disciplinary actions during the three year period 2001-03. Swarthmore did have 23 liquor law arrests during the period, but it was an atypical number. 13 of those came from one event in 2001 when a Pennsylvania undercover Alcohol Agent walked into the largest all-campus fraternity party of the year. [The college instituted strict college ID checking at the door of all campus-wide parties in the aftermath. The agent would no longer be allowed into a Swarthmore party without a valid college ID.]</p>
<p>Williams (a higher drinking campus), had 29 arrests and 78 disciplinary actions per year over the same period for drug law violations. They had 74 liquor law arrests and 331 liquor law disciplinary actions. The most disturbing number, to me, is that Williams had five illegal weapons arrests and ten illegal weapons disciplinary actions over the three year period.</p>
<p>Amherst, also in the higher moderate range for drinking had numbers similar to Williams, perhaps even a little higher. I don't think they had any illegal weapons arrests, but they did have several students transported to the hospital with stab wounds from broken bottles after several fairly serious fights during Homecoming Weekend a couple of years ago. Maybe "that's just college", but I don't remember any stab wounds from my college days, even with the heated Amherst/Williams football rivalry of the 1970s.</p>
<p>Source for crime stats: federal IPEDS filings.</p>
<p>One of the girls there for the admit overnight said she saw a couple kids smoking pot in the hallway of the substance-free dorm. She has decided to request a substance free dorm, and hope it stays that way.</p>
<p>That really shocks me
There must be other places that they can smoke pot on campus- to smoke it in a public area of a subfree dorm seems extremely rude and in your face.
at Reed my daughter was in a subfree dorm for 3 years- not just so that she could meet students who were intrested in spending freshman year not proving tht they were away at college by drinking every weekend- but also because she hoped it would be a tad quieter and because she has asthma and prefers to be around people who don't smoke.
Soph and jr year she was in subfree because- now those were the kids she hung out with - plus then you were guarenteed on getting a single dorm on campus.
BUt they took it very seriously
substances were not allowed period.
When I was going to make a clam speghetti that included wine in the sauce- I had to hide the unopened bottle and then make it in another dorm. BTW I am old enough to have a 22 year old daughter so it has been a long time since I have been underage.
The only substances they allow in there is coffee and woe befall them if they decide that , that is off limits!</p>
<p>My college roommate my junior year was a greshman and came from a very restrictive home - no drinking allowed, no nothing. (I lost in the single lottery and wound up with a freshman.) Her parents had hovered over her so much that she was unable to make any rational decisions on her own. Not only did she start drinking a lot, but I had to kick her and guys out of the room at 3am when they came in drunk. I also had to take her to the free clinic for a massive shot of penicillin. I, on the other hand, had parents who allowed me to make certain decisions on my own, and was allowed a little wine on holidays, etc. And I can count on one hand the number of drinks I have in one year (holidays a glass of wine - hate beer). I raised my DD the same way, and she likes a sweet wine (a few sips at holidays) and also hates beer. She doesn't like the tast of most wines. So it isn't that we are opposed to drinking, it's just something that neither of us really enjoy. The forbidden fruit argument is one reason some kids drink. Others do to fit in, especially being away from home, in order to have friends. Others continue a past problem and bring it with them. </p>
<p>At semester, I changed roommates. Thank heaven! At least she was embarrassed to tell me about some of the trouble she got into, but when it got bad, she knew to come to me so I could help her take care of it. She was Miss Popularity, I wasn't. I think I was much happier.</p>
<p>I am not so sure about that "forbidden fruit" theory. The studies I have seen for hard core alcoholics and drug users who hit rock bottom without killing themselves tend to have a long history of drink including starting substance abuse at a very early age, many with tasting wine or champagne in a supervised setting and then proceding to steal tastes, again at a young age. Where I think a specific danger is for kids who did not drink prior to college is when theydecide to binge drink or just drink too much as they have had no prior gauge of their tolerance. Some of these kids can die of alcohol poisoning, but I still would not recommend "practicing" drinking while underage. I have known many, many parents advocating many practices of drinking, and really cannot come up with any correlation between theory and results. My friends who allowed a classic introduction to fine wines and champagne toasts went through every headache of alcohol abuse with their kids. On the other hand, not every parent who practiced zero tolerance got zero on the abuse meter. I cannot begin to give advice in this area as it does depend on the kid. The old," call me if you're drunk and there's no consequence and I'll drive you home" has not always reaped positive results either. Underaged kids just should not drink in my opinion, because the down side of doing so can go right down to a visit to the morgue. Drinking is a very tricky thing for a kid to learn to do. Socially, adults drink. It is common practice to have a cocktail on occaision, and wine certainly has its place with fine dinners. Nothing like a cold beer with certain food as well. And the mild buzz you can get can take the edge of of many things, a socially acceptable tranquilizer of sorts, but managing doses does not come over night. </p>
<p>I do believe a good start on avoiding overdrinking does start with avoiding the schools heavy on the Greeks. Some of the most outrageous things that I know occured to kids have been associated with frat parties. </p>
<p>I can tell you that all of mine abused alcohol to some degree at college, but did manage to rein it in as they decided they did not like the after effects. The abuse during highschool years was limited severely as I kept a short leash on them regarding that issue, and they did miss out on a number of social activities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My D just returned from Amherst and we had a long talk. She says she is going there, but will probably have to find others who want to go to the movies on Friday night, or go by herself, because she is not a party-er.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your daughter will do fine at Amherst. Although the "binge drinking" rate is best available statisitical measure, I think that it probably overstates the percentage of hardcore problem drinkers a bit.</p>
<p>Personally, I don't really have a problem with college kids going to a safe location (campus party) and drinking within reason once a week on a Saturday night. I don't think that having five beers over the course of a long evening would necessarily be out-of-control drinking, although it's probably not a bad defintion for a survey.</p>
<p>What I have a big problem with is the mentality of drinking 'til you puke that seems to be in vogue. This raises some serious dangers. The blood alcohol levels of the kids being sent to the hospital is often at the lethal level. The pre-frosh hospitalized during the April campus visits at Williams a couple years ago was found in a coma on the steps of a dorm with a blood alcohol level of 0.40 and nearly died. The amount of alcohol you have to chug to reach those levels is just staggering. We're talking kids drinking a whole fifth of whiskey. That's just ridiculous. That's not "drinking". Might as well have a Russian Roulette party.</p>
<p>I also have real concerns about the rape charges that are resulting from this kind of drinking. By law, the colleges have to turn these accusations over to the police and it's just a real mess, because it typically turns out that both of the kids involved were too drunk to even remember the night before. The stories invariably start, "We'll I was too drunk to walk so I couldn't go back to my dorm and..." </p>
<p>And, of course, driving drunk is always frightening. </p>
<p>So, these are the areas that we've had some pretty frank discussions about in our house.</p>
<p>
<p>I agree with Momrath: [quote] Bad things happen at good colleges. Those that don't have drinking issues may have problems with sex, drugs and rock and roll....
Just say No--or just pressure guidance counselors to identify the boozers so we can keep them off our campus--doesn't prepare our kids to live in the real world. To the OP I would say: Visit the colleges, make sure you can find a comfortable number of like-minded students there, but realize that the only way (if there is one) to avoid any partying at all is to make that one of your highest priorities in choosing a school.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon - thank you for posting the thoughts that you have shared with college students. I will most certainly be sharing your insight with our three sons!</p>
<p>My D had similar concerns.</p>
<p>She discovered a few qualities that reduce the drinking pressure/drinking culture. No one school on her list had all the qualities below, but these were the things that seemed to correlate with a more moderate drinking culture:</p>
<p>-few or no Greeks
-not geographically isolated/in the boonies
-good diversity/tolerance/acceptance of differences (i.e. no pressure to drink from peers)
-Lots to do on campus (events, sports, plays, music, lectures, dance shows, movies etc.)
-sub-free housing if desired
-intellectual & creative atmosphere
-honor code, social responsibiltiy emphasis</p>
<p>BTW there are also some schools that officially are "dry" like Earlham. </p>
<p>My D has always had a mixed group of friends, and is not fazed by being in a party where others drink but does not like the taste of alcohol and does not like being out of control & does not want to feel like odd man out socially if not drinking. Her main concern was finding an environment with lots of social options and the kind of peers who would respect her choices.</p>
<p>I would look into some of the LACs that have similar intellectual quality to your original list but lower key social environments. Maybe Carleton, Haverford, etc?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Interesteddad, I've admired your wisdom on many topics, but I have to disagree here
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I dunno. Seems pretty intuitive to me. If you want to reduce the amount of hardcore drinking on your campus, enroll fewer hardcore drinkers. It's a heck of lot easier than trying to get hardcore drinkers to stop.</p>
<p>I don't see anything unfair about it. If Acme Academy sent Elite University a dozen students who all flunked out, Elite would stop accepting students from Acme. What's the difference? Kids coming to Elite and being disruptive drunks aren't adding anything positive to the campus.</p>
<p>Here's the real problem. My guess is that the worst offenders are the very students the colleges MOST want to enroll. Full-fare customers and helmet sport recruits. With the possible exception of the tech schools, it isn't the low-income financiial aid kids, the minority kids, and the geeks who are doing the hardcore drinking.</p>