Awesome! New Undergradute Finance Program

Colleges and Universities A-Z Northwestern University
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<p>I'm a soph at NU and I thought some of you guys might be interested in this:
<a href="http://kellogg.northwestern.edu/news/whatsnew/CMEgrant.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://kellogg.northwestern.edu/news/whatsnew/CMEgrant.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"The grant also supports a new undergraduate certificate program in finance [administered by Kellogg], offering a sequence of advanced class offerings to highly qualified Northwestern undergraduates."</p>

<p>From an inside source i heard that the new finance program would be a minor in practice. Also from an inside source I heard that we're working towards an undergrad major in Finance or Business within a couple of year and this is the first step in that direction. Once that happens NU will be in the spotlight (read lower admission rates) for a while.</p>

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<p>wow nice...!!</p>

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<p>atanas_vs,</p>

<p>"inside source"? Are you serious? :) Well, if that happens, NU will be the new UPenn!</p>

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<p>Pretty serious, I was told about this finance certificate like 2 months ago and about the delibarations over an undergrad business major last May from two pretty reliable professors (that's what I mean by an inside source.)</p>

<p>"Well, if that happens, NU will be the new UPenn!"
Hopefully!</p>

5

<p>I don't want Northwestern to be the new Penn. What will happen is Northwestern will become more preprofessional, and farther away from a strong liberal arts emphasis. Certificate is good enough in my opinion.</p>

<p>And who said Penn is better than Northwestern anyway? :)</p>

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<p>I think an undergraduate business major will be a positive thing in terms of boosting the prestige of the school. But it is true that it will change the focus of the school. I think what they are going to try to do is make an elite program which will have a separate admission process (kind of like MMSS.) Thus we won't reach the situation that 600 people enrol in the new program out of a class of 2000.</p>

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<p>"I don't want Northwestern to be the new Penn. What will happen is Northwestern will become more preprofessional, and farther away from a strong liberal arts emphasis. Certificate is good enough in my opinion.</p>

<p>And who said Penn is better than Northwestern anyway?"</p>

<p>-Two cheers for you!!!!! :)</p>

<p>I don't expect that there will be any business programs coming anytime soon, so we shouldn't be too upset/happy about the prospects just yet. The people who would be enrolling in this program are the same who study Econ and business inst. now.. and while the program would be large, I don't think that there would be THAT many people who would try to enter. If there's one thing I know it's NU politics, and there won't be too many students who sit idly by and allow there to be any kind of 'elite' business major within the university.... It would have to be open to all within whatever college it's in, or nothing. </p>

<p>Since this (certificate) program will be for "highly qualified Northwestern undergraduates" I don't know what this is that big an announcement; I'd expect that no more than 40 people are allowed to enter when it begins. </p>

<p>Also, since when does business major = more prestige!?!??! :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>"Also, since when does business major = more prestige!?!??!"
A business major -> More applicants to NU
More applicants to NU -> Lower Admission Rate
Lower Admission Rate -> Bigger prestige</p>

<p>"If there's one thing I know it's NU politics, and there won't be too many students who sit idly by and allow there to be any kind of 'elite' business major within the university.... It would have to be open to all within whatever college it's in, or nothing. "
Well, we have MMSS and HPME right now, I myself don't see anyone protesting that they are not open to everyone. The new business major can be done in a similar way.</p>

<p>"The people who would be enrolling in this program are the same who study Econ and business inst. now.. and while the program would be large, I don't think that there would be THAT many people who would try to enter."
If there is a business major open to all undergraduates soon you will see it become the biggest major on campus within a couple of years, surpassing Economics which stands at about 300+ majors a class right now. I promise you.</p>

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<p>One of the biggest strength of Northwestern's undergraduate program is that all seven programs are solid, and generally equal in terms of strength and prestige. Consequently, it's easy to transfer between schools, and it's not a big deal if one changes from engineering to WCAS, or vice versa. In Penn's case, a big proportion of the undergraduates who are not Wharton envy Wharton kids and creates interschool tension (although this is debatable). This generally allows Wharton kids to have a sense of superiority over kids from other programs, and thus ruins the school unity, spirit, and culture. I THINK... </p>

<p>Northwestern is FINE with how's it managing its undergraduate programs. If I could change something, I would reduce the number of programs and strengthen them, but not expand the number of programs. </p>

<p>Stanford, Dartmouth, Harvard, Columbia, and Chicago all have top business schools, but do not offer a program at the undergrduate level because they appreciate the importance of receiving a sound liberal arts education. I'm not implying you can't get one when you're studying business, but business is considered by many a very specialized field.</p>

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<p>“Well, we have MMSS and HPME right now, I myself don't see anyone protesting that they are not open to everyone. The new business major can be done in a similar way.”</p>

<p>The thing is, the Econ/business bunch at NU is both numerous, and outspoken. There is a HUGE difference between MMSS (and even HPME) and any ‘elite’ business program. First, not everyone is cut out for the immense level of math in MMSS, second, HPME is pretty much set from the gate- so people have to be admitted to the program even before they step on campus (it should also be noted that HPME is a program and not a major- there is a huge difference here). Having this kind of admission for a business major would be awkward and cumbersome at best. If there are 300+ Econ majors now (arguably many wanting to go into business), do you really think they will sit by and let a business program of 40 or so exist? I sure don’t.</p>

<p>“If there is a business major open to all undergraduates soon you will see it become the biggest major on campus within a couple of years, surpassing Economics which stands at about 300+ majors a class right now. I promise you.”</p>

<p>I completely agree that it would become the largest major- my point is that I highly doubt that the major would number 600+ like you insinuated earlier- which would represent 56% of CAS- or equal about the same number of incoming Tech, Medill, and Music students combined. </p>

<p>“A business major -> More applicants to NU
More applicants to NU -> Lower Admission Rate
Lower Admission Rate -> Bigger prestige”</p>

<p>-I don’t agree with this logic- especially your conclusion of “lower admission rate-> bigger prestige”. I mean, reducing the incoming class size would also lower the admission rate, but that wouldn’t do too much in the way of making the school more prestigious, now would it?.... The College of the Ozarks has an 11% admissions rate… but who cares??</p>

<p>Places like Georgetown, WashU, and Emory all have undergrad b schools, and I think it’s pretty safe to say that the benefit that they receive from said schools is not that large. </p>

<p>While I do believe that applications will rise if NU gets a business program, I really don’t believe that the result will give the school that much of a boost in prestige.</p>

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<p>"Having this kind of admission for a business major would be awkward and cumbersome at best. If there are 300+ Econ majors now (arguably many wanting to go into business), do you really think they will sit by and let a business program of 40 or so exist? I sure don’t."</p>

<p>I don't see Upenn Econ majors protesting they cannot get into Wharton. Why not make the same here?</p>

<p>"-I don’t agree with this logic- especially your conclusion of “lower admission rate-> bigger prestige”. I mean, reducing the incoming class size would also lower the admission rate, but that wouldn’t do too much in the way of making the school more prestigious, now would it?.... "
Admissions rate are the main indicator for the undergrad rankings by the US News. While I am not saying it's right or it's not that the US News Rankings are the most watched indicator of prestige for an undergrad school nowadays, I cannot deny this fact. It's beyond a doubt for me that a significantly lower admission rate would boost our standing in those rankings and this will start a snowball effect.</p>

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<p>“I don't see Upenn Econ majors protesting they cannot get into Wharton. Why not make the same here?”</p>

<p>The Wharton School is its own college. For this to work out that way, Northwestern would have to create a unique undergraduate business school, something I’m pretty sure the admin is not ready to do at this point. There is a lot that goes into creating a new program, things like getting administrative offices assigned, hiring new professors, getting budgets passed, etc.- things that Northwestern likes to handle with care and time. This leads me to believe that no new business program will be coming anytime this decade.</p>

<p>“Admissions rate are the main indicator for the undergrad rankings by the US News. While I am not saying it's right or it's not that the US News Rankings are the most watched indicator of prestige for an undergrad school nowadays, I cannot deny this fact. It's beyond a doubt for me that a significantly lower admission rate would boost our standing in those rankings and this will start a snowball effect”</p>

<p>-Admission rates are not the main indicator in the US News ranking- Peer Assessment is. PA represents 25% of the ranking methodology, whereas ‘student selectivity’, which includes the admission rate (among other things), only counts for 15%. Both retention and faculty resource rankings also account for more than admissions rates.</p>

<p>Also, US News does not rank specifically undergrad programs, but the universities as a whole. Moreover, both a rise in applications and a higher yield are necessary to gain a lower admission rate; Northwestern would not only need to get more applicants, but would have to be able to have the yield to back up accepting a smaller number of people.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
This generally allows Wharton kids to have a sense of superiority over kids from other programs, and thus ruins the school unity, spirit, and culture

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I see your point. But perhaps Michigan can be the model to use??<br>
kk,</p>

<p>I actually agree with atanas about the rise in prestige/ranking especially if the business program is under Kellogg (it would have to be since it's ridiculous to have business/finance major under arts and sciences). The schools you mentioned like WashU, Emory, and Georgetown have one common problem--their business schools are not considered elite ones and they are nothing special. People easily choose Ivies over those schools. Kellogg rivals Wharton on the other hand and good number of kids would choose it over HYPS. If all of a sudden, there's an undergrad business program in Kellogg, Kellogg would compete directly with Wharton for those brightest and business oriented kids (though we have already have some of the best of the best in our econ and MMSS programs) .</p>

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<p>"There is a lot that goes into creating a new program, things like getting administrative offices assigned, hiring new professors, getting budgets passed, etc.- things that Northwestern likes to handle with care and time. This leads me to believe that no new business program will be coming anytime this decade."
3 more years till the next decade, buddy. Not a long time. The point of the finance certificate is to get the things rolling for the undergrad business major.</p>

<p>"PA represents 25% of the ranking methodology, whereas ‘student selectivity’, which includes the admission rate (among other things), only counts for 15%. "
What about admission rate influencing peer assessment? Peer assessment is a function of factors about a school, a strong undergrad business school surely among them.</p>

<p>"Also, US News does not rank specifically undergrad programs, but the universities as a whole."
So? Wouldn't a strong program boost the undergrad program as a whole?</p>

<p>I don't see why people would be opposing a new program. If you don't like it don't go for it and that's all. This is my last post in this thread.</p>

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<p>“and good number of kids would choose it over HYPS.”</p>

<p>I find this hard to swallow… If Kellogg started a random undergrad program, I don’t know that THAT many HYPSW cross admits would choose it over those schools. I see no reason. There isn’t much that a business degree from Northwestern- even if it is from Kellog –can get a person that an Econ degree from HYPSW can’t. And since NU doesn’t have the merit aid that some other schools have, it will have a very difficult time taking people from HYPSW. </p>

<p>“Well, I got into Harvard, Princeton, Wharton, and Northwestern….. I think I’ll go to the brand-new business program at Northwestern.”…. What’s wrong with this picture?????</p>

<p>You’re talking about growing prestige, but how in the world can Northwestern compete with the prestige that these schools have already acquired? While yes, Kellogg is a competitor on the graduate level, it would take several years before its undergrad program gains the ability to attract students who would otherwise go to HYPSW…. If NYU, MIT, and Michigan aren’t really doing this now, why will Northwestern be any more successful? </p>

<p>I see it like this: the program may help with growing prestige, but significant prestige is needed to achieve the undergrad program people are seeking- one that steals potential students from HYPSW. That is, there has to be a VALID reason for students to choose Northwestern over HYPSW, other than that Kellogg is a really good grad school. </p>

<p>I guess we just have a different view of the name power Kellogg has.</p>

<p>“What about admission rate influencing peer assessment?”</p>

<p>-What about the kinds of trees on campus?... I really don’t buy that academics filling out the PA will say: “hmm, Northwestern has a 15% admission rate… so I think I’ll give it a higher score”…. </p>

<p>“Peer assessment is a function of factors about a school, a strong undergrad business school surely among them.”</p>

<p>Tell that to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Columbia, Duke, Brown, Caltech, and Chicago</p>

<p>“So? Wouldn't a strong program boost the undergrad program as a whole?”</p>

<p>-Yep, one program among the several that Northwestern has would shoot it to the top of the US News list…. :rolleyes: </p>

<p>“I don't see why people would be opposing a new program. If you don't like it don't go for it and that's all. This is my last post in this thread.”</p>

<p>-It’s not so much that I’m opposed to the program (even though I'm not a big fan of preprofessional programs), I just think that people are overstating the potential outcomes of such a program, and also know that nothing of the like would be happening any time soon.... and I surely didn't want to drive you away. :)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
it would take several years before its undergrad program gains the ability to attract students who would otherwise go to HYPSW…. If NYU, MIT, and Michigan aren’t really doing this now, why will Northwestern be any more successful?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Several years aren't that much. :)</p>

<p>I believe MIT as a whole competes well with HYPS. I have also seen people picking Wharton over HYPS or at least regarding it as "tough" decision.</p>

<p>As for NYU and Michigan, both business schools aren't as prestigious as Kellogg. </p>

<p>
[quote]
PA represents 25% of the ranking methodology, whereas ‘student selectivity’, which includes the admission rate (among other things), only counts for 15%.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The thing is most top schools are so close in most categories that any edge in any of them can make a noticeable difference, even if the category doesn't seem to account for much.</p>

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<p>Big BUMP</p>

<p>So what's the word on the street now about an undergrad business major?</p>

<p>Wiki says that John Meriwether (of hedge fund fame) got his undergrad business degree from Kellogg at NU - typo?</p>

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<p>Meriwether got it here, true as far as I know. There used to be an undergrad business degree back in the day. There might be one soon again too.</p>

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<p>i went to a panel discussion at preview nu on "paths to business" and they said they have no intention of reinstating an undergrad business major...</p>