<p>Connections - I was being facetious and used “naturals” in quotes because the people I was talking about usually have few skills if any and rarely work if ever. They’re all over the place out here and really just kind of in the way although some do occasionally manage to book a costar level role. But it doesn’t usually lead to a real career. You see them occasionally get something on Reality TV, too. From the guest star level in episodic TV and the major supporting level in film and up, the vast majority of actors who do have sustained careers have a good deal of training in their backgrounds although it was most typically taken in the non-scholastic studios and not in college. Some of them are damn good, too, although I doubt I’d want to see their Shakespeare. Then, there are some name actors who started very young who’ve typically been privately coached out the yin yang over the years. You also have to consider the profound differences between acting in theatre and effective camera acting that they don’t do a very good job of teaching in school, but that’s a whole different essay I’m not up for writing right now. You might look into Patrick Tucker’s Secrets of Screen Acting which is the best book I’ve seen on the differences if you want to educate yourself on it. There’s a reason theatre trained actors so often have a hard time booking TV and film roles and it doesn’t necessarily always have to do with their looks although the camera finding one to be an interesting subject is a prerequisite. I won’t comment on commercials since I don’t do those. My legit/theatrical agent’s don’t 'llow it …</p>
<p>And I don’t have any specific recommendations for your son. I don’t know him and it wouldn’t be fair anyway since a lot of the “tippy top” programs have made faculty changes and even have different people at the helm since I last looked at programs closely. Overall, though, I’d generally recommend the modern day Juilliard and CMU and possibly the UM Guthrie program if he isn’t too averse to the fairly strong academic component about which I’ve seen some people who were initially enthused later complain “got in the way.”</p>
<p>MomCares - I don’t know where you got the idea that I said that a BA doesn’t offer any training at all. I never said that. It’s just a matter of degree. And I’m not going to comment on MT training because it’s not my ballgame other than the short module I had at school. There’s a whole different CC forum for that although I do personally know a Northwestern grad who’s doing quite well in the straight acting world. Their BA is one of those borderline BFAs KatMT was talking about earlier as I understand it. And there’s still certainly a lot to be learned after graduation no matter where you go. As I just told Connections, a good bit of the technical side of what I do now isn’t taught very well in any American school of which I’m aware although some of the British schools are now introducing proper camera and mic technique as early as first year and a couple of others actually offer a Masters in Screen Acting. You never stop learning. </p>
<p>Funny what a small world it is. There was a girl on here who went by the username DizzyDani88 who posted on the early days of this forum who went to Yale. I noticed somebody commenting on a visual artist friend of mine’s Facebook that I thought might be her a few years back. I looked at her info and indeed it was. She graduated in '10, did a couple of years in outlying regionals and is now in her first year at the ACT MFA. Her parents must be loaded …</p>
<p>^^Whether or not her parents are “loaded” is impossible to determine based on her having gone to Yale, which I’m sure most CC readers know provides superlative financial aid–as do many MFA programs in a variety of fields. That’s really a pretty insulting assumption. It is safe to assume that any Yale grad is smart, however. Whether or not an acting teacher from the past decrees that one’s academic background would impede acting ability…not for me to judge that comment, but I do hope we can all be allowed to encourage our kids to discover and follow the path that seems best for them as individuals.</p>
<p>Connections, Fish can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that many of the “naturals” are what my son calls “personality actors”…an actor who has a certain something that enables them to play a specific kind of character (presumably someone similar to himself or herself) quite appealingly, but that’s about it. They have little range.</p>
<p>There are lots of people like that in the film world. Some are huge stars. </p>
<p>There was a discussion once here on CC once where someone was arguing that training wasn’t necessary. I brought up the example of Tommy Lee Jones. Everybody loves Tommy Lee Jones, and it’s easy to see why…but could he play King Lear? Would you want to see him try? Just think about it. :)</p>
<p>(Oops, crossposted. What a lively thread this is!)</p>
<p>Just my opinion, but I think Tommy Lee Jones has stepped out of his own box significantly in Lincoln (saw it yesterday). Maybe he’ll be ready for King Lear yet!</p>
<p>I think a lot of what has been discussed here so interestingly is the question of curriculum, not the definition of degree. Curriculum can be gained anywhere - including with private coaches “up the ying-yang.” When my D considered BAs and BFAs, she focused significantly on curriculum. It came second to production opportunities, to be honest. For her, as I’ve said, it including both the training and the academics, but the first filter was the training. As MomCares says, a BA like Northwestern has enormous training opportunities. There are many BAs that don’t. The “professional” classes - like auditioning and the business side - that the Yale article says are missing at many BFAs are nice, but not really the meat of this discussion.</p>
<p>One item it might help some of these kids to look at with their schools is the availability of learning to act on film. My D’s BFA does have a required Acting for the Camera course, and other electives. There is a strong media/film/TV dept at Adelphi, and many theatre students minor there. She has been able to perform in their projects, and I’m expecting this will give her some more film experience before she graduates, at least enough to know if it’s something she would like to pursue. Another area of learning is voice acting (for animation and also for video games, interestingly enough). My D plans to take courses in this before she leaves as well, as she could definitely imagine working in that area.</p>
<p>Some BA schools have these kinds of deep AND broad experiential opportunities, and some don’t. Just this week I got a call from a senior we know who is applying Minn, and wondering about the BA/BFA there. I told her that as far as we could tell, if she is not accepted into the Guthrie, she could have a “BFA-like” or “borderline” (Kat and fishbowl’s term) BFA experience in the BA, because there are so many courses available and really tremendous performance opportunities. At other BAs we saw much more significant gaps in training - sometimes simply because the gen eds took so much time that you could never do more than about 40% of your coursework in theatre, even including electives beyond the major requirements.</p>
<p>Times3, maybe Fish was alluding to the fact that the ACT MFA is one of the programs that does not provide anything along the lines of tuition remission and stipends in return for a teaching assistanceships. If my son ever seeks an MFA, it certainly will have to be at a school that does.</p>
<p>Did I use the term “borderline?” I don’t want to take credit for fishbowl’s term …</p>
<p>What I said in post #12 – "Research the programs, look at the online catalogs, talk to current faculty and students, as well as alumni. If you do not know any, contact the program and ask to be put in touch with people. Assume nothing. There are SOOOOOO many different types of programs, and while BA and BFA programs are often different in focus, it is not always in the way you would assume. I often describe programs as laying on a line (like a time line) with very liberal arts focused BAs on one end and more “trade school” like BFAs on the other… as you move toward the middle you will see more and more similarities between BA and BFA programs in terms of training and focus, and programs at the center may be VERY similar with some BFA programs and BA programs looking VERY much a like. "</p>
<p>I think what most are saying on this thread is that there are different paths for different people, and that in the end it is all about finding the one that works best for you… at least that is how I interpret it. :)</p>
<p>However, it is important to make sure you understand what a program has to offer before attending.</p>
<p>^ Yeah that’s MY term! But you speak the truth more accurately and i agree 100%. </p>
<p>NJTheatreMOM - No. I don’t mean personality actors. Most of the name screen actors fall into that category and they are usually studio trained. Some of them have a lot more range than you’d think, too. What I meant was people who’ve just shown up in LA and proclaimed themselves actors who have no real reason to do so thinking that they’ll get by on their looks and compelling personalities when they usually don’t really have a significant amount of either. It must be a widespread self-esteem thing because Hollywood is crawling with them. I never thought the day would come when I would inwardly cringe when somebody told me he or she was an actor … </p>
<p>
Exactly. And I can pretty well assume her parents are loaded from knowing which New York neighborhood she grew up in. Relax. Geez … </p>
<p>Yale didn’t provide much financial aid at all to my old friend who was decidedly middle class and went there, either. It was a lot of drama for him senior year to decide what to do since he was offered a full ride to the honors college at our state university and several other places. Fortunately, he immediately landed a good paying gig at a top fashion design firm to start paying off all the debt he incurred after graduation. How many actors get to do that? Debt is not our friend. As an aside, I wonder how the kid who took on a bunch of debt to go to Tisch in the Spring of '09 and was yacking at everybody that they should too is feeling about things right about now …</p>
<p>Oh, and EmmyBet - MOST schools offer a class in Acting for the Camera. Hey, my state university offered one, but it’s usually not nearly enough and doesn’t begin to reflect what we really do. It’s certainly possible for the extremely industrious to get it by experience while in school, though. There’s a girl from my old high school who’ll be graduating from one of the conservatories this spring who’s managed to put together the most impressive looking reel of student film work I’ve ever seen. She wrote, produced, directed and acted in most of the clips herself. </p>
<p>Something told me I was stepping in something I’d spend a lot of time wiping off my shoe when I decided to enter this thread and speak candidly. Meh … It’s a slow week. :)</p>
<p>Not sure how relevant this is, but the Boston University School of Theatre offers a “Los Angeles Certificate Program: Acting in Hollywood” for their grads and other qualified grads who are able to pay for it:</p>
<p>fishbowl, I remember DizzyDani too. I knew she graduated from Yale but didn’t know she got into the MFA at ACT. Good for her. My daughter was in a show with her in NYC last fall. </p>
<p>I also would not assume one’s financial resources based on what schools they attend. One of my kids went to an expensive Ivy and two top tier grad schools, but received need based aid, plus scholarships and fellowships and we have lotsa loans (that she won’t be paying). My other kid went to the expensive NYU, but also got both need based and merit based scholarships and I’m paying lotsa loans for that too. We are hardly “loaded.” Just sayin’.</p>
<p>The BFA over the BA was the perfect choice for my son. He hates math and struggles with a learning disability but is enormously gifted artist. The BFA dives right in to his areas of interest.</p>
<p>We went on a couple college tours with potential transfer students from other lib arts schools with BA programs. They were told they would probably have to transfer in as freshman. Plus, they clearly didn’t know the latest techniques and equipment used in their intended majors when asked what they were using.</p>
<p>That is wonderful that your son found the school that was right for him! </p>
<p>I attended a BFA program, and teach in a BA program. In the BFA program I attended we only took 30 credits outside of the major, most of them were electives, and the requirements were arts and writing based, not quantitative. The grad school I attended had a BFA program and students there took the same general education core as BA students (including math and science courses). All programs requirements are different. Which is why students need to look closely and specifically at all programs that interest them to confirm that each program offers the kind of educational environment for which they are looking.</p>
<p>On a side note…The fact that the transfer students from BA programs on your tour were not as knowledgeable about techniques and equipment does not indicate anything about BA programs in general, but rather about the programs in which those particular students were currently enrolled… or possibly about the students themselves. Ex. I was recently frustrated with a student who did not seems to apply the things learned in a class to a project. A colleague commented to me that perhaps the student had applied the things learned, simply not all of the things covered and taught. ;-)</p>
<p>Not all BA or BFA programs are made alike… a more academically well rounded program may be better fit for some students… a more major specific focus may be better fit for some students… students should find the program that is the best fit for them. </p>
<p>I’m a little surprised that no-one here is talking about the quality of the program and I don’t really know beyond the obvious rankings how to figure that out. Right now, I’m probably going to be attending a BA-BFA State school due to cost and quality. I am a little concerned that it may lack intensity but at least the quality of the classes seems very high. I’ve audited and know people who attend. Also, I’m a little worried about a BFA from a little known school or a school with a doubtful academic reputation because chances seem good that we will all need survival jobs. Paying for a college education to be a waitress is not going over well around here.</p>
<p>^ If you’re serious about being an actor, just make sure you get some practical experience doing something besides acting that you can use to keep a roof over your head over the next few summers. That doesn’t require a specialized college degree and there really aren’t many undergraduate degrees that necessarily lead to gainful employment anyway. That’s what the trade courses at community college are for once you get outside the medical, scientific and engineering fields and even those aren’t any guarantee. I’m sure Yale grads do better on the general job market than most, but overall a college degree doesn’t entitle you to anything.</p>
<p>As I recall, there were an awful lot of people with business degrees and whatnot waiting tables right along with some of my actor friends in New York. I wonder how many of the parents on here still do what they studied in undergraduate? My high school boyfriend got a B.S. in Architecture from Georgia Tech and he now manages a Lowe’s and there are apparently people with Ph.Ds out driving trucks. My mom who always expected me to become a lawyer used to razz me that I was getting a waitressing degree and I really enjoyed sending her a link to an article showing people with J.D.s waiting tables and bartending a couple of years ago. I wish I could still find it, but the email was entitled, “See, Mom? They’re ALL waitressing degrees!” :D</p>
<p>I don’t know what some of you think of Will Smith - a long-time private student of Aaron Speiser btw - but there’s a [video</a> of quotes by him called “Talent vs. Skill”](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPcT0LcqD4U]video”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPcT0LcqD4U) that is very reflective of the general attitudes of those who tend to be successful in the acting world and most likely all walks of life. My favorite as it directly relates here is …
Not that he’s encouraging anyone to take on a bunch of debt for a college acting program or to neglect learning basic survival skills, but I couldn’t agree more.</p>
<p>Another that really strikes a note with me that only marginally relates to this discussion but I’m gonna post anyway is …
<p>I could be mistaken, but I seriously doubt that many students at Yale, or other top Theatre BA programs, are ultimately destined for mediocrity or suffer from a poor work ethic. ;)</p>
<p>Top BA programs are full of talented kids who choose them very intentionally and for reasons specific to their personal educational goals, much like the top BFA programs. The track records of such top schools indicate that they are all about equally likely to graduate kids who go on to happy productive careers, both in and out of theatre.</p>
<p>Actor12, no matter where you go to school, be all that you can be. If you set short and long term goals, take advantage of every opportunity, work in summers in your field if possible, be very driven and motivated, do your best and then some in each endeavor in school and out of school, create your opportunities and don’t wait for things to come to you, you will have a very good chance at success and it doesn’t matter so much the name of your school. I will admit that my kids attended well known colleges and grad schools, but I feel that much of their success in their respective fields (and one is in theater) is mostly due to their inner drive and motivation to achieve, and creating and initiating opportunities for themselves. You can do this too. Anyone can succeed, no matter where they attend college.</p>
<p>actor12, I second Soozievt–you can go to a top BFA or BA but if you lack the work ethic & drive Fishbowlfreshman refers to, it won’t matter. And if you are burning with drive & work ethic, then a state university that you speak of can be awesome. I went to a state university in their honors college–not much has changed in this school as far as I can see, so what I say is still applicable-- The main thing is to work hard and to establish connections with professors at the university. The connections thing is very important-- you do that by going to their office hours, talking after class, etc (aside from doing very well in their class). You would pick profs you respect and admire. The world of tenure track professorship is so competitive that you are very likely to find profs at any state university who are very important in their field. They can then mentor you, advise you for internships etc., and write letters of recommendation. This approach is applicable for almost any school, even a community college, and in any field. I can give you hundreds of examples of people I know how went either to a regular state university or even first to a community college, and who ended up extremely successful, including in acting. Sometimes, depending on the student, it’s almost better being the ‘big fish in the little pond.’ That depends on you of course, but you can certainly make it work at a state university. Best of luck!</p>
<p>Fishbowlfreshman, I LOVED the Will Smith link. Extremely wise. Thanks for posting.</p>
<p>^^This. There are great professors at just about every school, and sometimes a less prestigious school has an advantage in having younger, more energetic souls. Go look at a school, talk to the professors, sit in on classes, talk to students. The vibe always comes from the top–but you can feel it everywhere.</p>
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