Bard Conservatory vs Oberlin Conservatory for composition?

College Majors Music Major
1

I’d like as much help as possible --I need to make a big decision. I have been given the opportunity to study composition as a dual degree student at both Bard and Oberlin. While the financial situation at Bard would be somewhat better, both schools have been very generous (thus, I hope to be able to take into account more qualitative data). In terms of deciding upon an intended academic major, I have very little clarity; originally environmental studies seemed interesting, then I thought perhaps psychology, and now I’m seriously considering film studies/production. With just a basic understanding of the curriculums of these various programs, I’d assume the lattermost would create the most seamless pairing with comp --but, I imagine this depends on the school. I would really appreciate any thoughts/opinions on this matter! I’ll list some general criteria/questions below.

  1. How Integrated are the conservatories with their respective colleges? I know, of course, that all Bard students are dual degree, but does that really mean the two schools are more closely related? I understand that some Obies complain about separation b/w the CAS and CON, but does this divide exist for Dual Degree students? I must admit I haven’t really decided what level of integration attracts me.
  2. If I decided I wanted to drop my academic Major…? I don’t think this would be possible at Bard (Idk though), and at Oberlin I would be concerned about losing a large portion of my merit aid from the college.
  3. Overall style/direction of the conservatories (specifically the composition departments)?
  4. Experiences with Staff? I interviewed with Stephen Hartke and Elizabeth Ogonek at Oberlin and Joan Tower and George Tsontakis at Bard. While I have no doubt that both departments and the staff within them are brilliant/renowned, I wonder if working with composers who are older (bard) would be better/worse than the alternative. Composers at the tail end of their careers, while they are more conscious of leaving a legacy through their teaching, do they not also approach new styles with hesitancy?
  5. What are alumni doing? Typical Grad schools students get into?
  6. How accessible are ensembles for comp students? I’m a pianist/percussionist (although most of my piano background is in jazz).
  7. Performance opportunities for my music?
  8. Piano lessons / lessons on any instrument? Would these be with students or faculty?
  9. Perception of student body? While Oberlin strikes me as (overall) more academically driven, both seem very artsy and chill --a vibe I enjoy. That said, I wouldn’t want this “vibe” to be the byproduct of disengaged, jaded artists that are more interested in cigs than academic/social involvement. (that’s kind of the image of Bard students that cc and other sources have created for me --I’d love to be told otherwise!).
  10. Location? Both are in the middle of nowhere; both have sucky winters; both are relatively adjacent to small towns that seem economically dependent upon the student body. Any distinctions, positive or negative?
  11. Intramural soccer? I’ve played competitively for the majority of my life. While I’m aware that athletics aren’t big at either school, are there still some opportunities for leisurely participation?
  12. Comparison of the academic departments I mentioned? I’m under the impression that Film is stronger at Bard, although I know Ed Helms went through Oberlin.

Thanks so much for reading all of this! I never thought it would become so lengthy. I’d really appreciate any information you have to offer, and I apologize for any inaccuracies in the “assumptions” I have made.

2

I can answer most of your Bard questions. My son is a grad. Classics and Composition.

  1. Most of the courses taken by Bard conservatory students are in the college itself. Only a few are exclusive to the conservatory. The conservatory is only 100+ students, out of a student body of 1600 or so. There is just about no divide for conservatory students within the college - more divide going the other way. Conservatory students can participate in 100% of the college - but college students can't take a few classes or perform in the conservatory ensembles. If you're interested in jazz piano - you'd be in the college jazz department anyway.
  2. The only way to drop your academic major at Bard would be to drop out of the conservatory and pursue a BA in Music in the College only - and you would lose any conservatory based merit aid.
  3. I can no longer answer this now that Hartke and Ogonek are at Oberlin. Oberlin used to be more European modernist and less interested in American new music. Bard's composition department has no dogma. There is no one acceptable style, although Tower & Tsontakis do have a lot of experience with traditional form orchestral works
  4. In addition to Joan Tower and George Tsontakis, you can study with Kyle Gann and John Halle. They will generally support any direction you wish to go and you'll find you may click more with one than another. My son studied with all four. Kyle Gann is a phenomenal musicologist, as well - with great classes. And Tsontakis is fabulous with teaching orchestration. The overall college music department is one of the best out there. I'm sure Oberlin is good too, however. There is also the electroacoustic department in the college if you wish to study electronic music. And ethnomusicology.
  5. Alumni go on to grad schools - Juilliard, Yale, Chicago, Sibelius Academy, etc. - or they just compose. You can ask the conservatory to give you a list of recent admissions. I think all so far have stayed in music as their primary pursuit - some teaching, some working in the recording industry etc. My own son is finishing at Yale. He is also supporting himself as a composer, and has been for a few years now. He's had some major commissions from large metropolitan orchestras, as have some of the other alumni.
  6. Most composition students perform in the college orchestra not the conservatory. There are student founded and run ensembles, too with a mix of musicians from the conservatory and the college. There are many good musicians at Bard who are not in the conservatory - and often they're more open to performing new music than the ones training for orchestra jobs in the conservatory. There are chamber groups which are official courses in the college, as well, run by members of Da Capo.
  7. This is where Oberlin might have the edge. There is an official student concert every semester - but the instrumentation is limited. Usually it's members of Da Capo. There is an orchestral reading yearly - but not every student participates each year. There is a vocal program every two years, invite only, with Dawn Upshaw's graduate students. There is a performance by the conservatory orchestra for upper division students. The way my son got around the limitations was by forming his own ensemble and putting on his own concerts.
  8. Piano lessons would be with college faculty, not conservatory - unless you audition for piano performance. There are no student teachers that I know of - all faculty. The adjunct faculty in the college is great for secondary lessons.
  9. Bard students are passionate. Yes, there are cigarettes among some. But there is passion among almost the entire student body. It's what makes a student choose Bard. The passion might be for something weird and arcane - but it's real. And, yes, they're intellectual and love to share those passions. They are extremely academic - in the sense of loving to learn and to share their knowledge with their friends. Socially - all kinds, except not a ton of hard partiers or drinkers. The social life tends to be more intimate. The parody on The Onion of the Bard dinner parties was actually pretty accurate! Oberlin may have a more traditional active social life. No idea. There are plenty of clubs at Bard and usually you can find what you're looking for. But you might have to go looking.
  10. Bard is extremely connected to the music and art scene in New York City. It is a major difference between the two colleges. You can go to NYC for concerts, and to meet with local composers. My son went into NYC all the time - including founding a new music ensemble that ultimately was based in NYC and performed there regularly. He got to know and work with a huge range of musicians and composers in the city, not just the ones at Bard. The connections he made in NYC have served him well. I'd say the proximity of the city is a huge plus for Bard vs Oberlin. But it's also really nice to be able to get away to the peaceful beauty of the Hudson Valley. Also, the area around Bard is lovely for contemplative hikes and stimulating to one's creative imagination. (Think Mahler and his composing cabin by the lake.) It's a great mix of the availability of the big city, as well as the vastness of a starlit night sky without any city lights to intrude.
  11. The soccer team is probably better at Oberlin - as they have more of an athletic student body - but Bard has started recruiting and has made their teams more competitive. You might be able to play on the team - if you don't participate in ensembles with conflicting schedule times.
  12. Film is big at Bard. And competitive. If you want to major in it, you'll need to know right away and start taking the pre-reqs. It won't be as easy to try a number of different things first, as it might be at Oberlin. (I have no idea.) Bard has some very intense academic milestones - moderation where you have to prove to the faculty that you are ready and deserving to be admitted to a major, and senior project - which is a year long, with a panel and a defense required.

Feel free to PM me.

3

Why are you doing a double degree? This might be helpful: http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html

It sounds to me like you might want to start off as a composition major, and that would mean Oberlin. Would you be involved with TIMARA if you were at Oberlin?

Spirit Manager has covered Bard. Perhaps an Oberlin parent will come on and comment.

There used to be a “low wall” between the conservatory and college.

Oberlin does not require an instrument of composers.

The students at Oberlin seemed extremely supportive of one another and attendance at concerts, when we were there, was strong.

There has been some change at Oberlin, with Hartke now leading the department. I’m sure you are aware.

I didn’t know Oberlin gave merit money…

I would think the two main issues would be whether or not you really want to be in a situation where a double degree is required (Bard) and what aesthetic environment you want to be in (listen to faculty and student works).

4

Although the OP hasn’t returned, more thoughts over the last few days of the differences.

The composition program at Bard Conservatory is set up like a graduate program - private lessons from day one, and no restrictions or instructions on what to write. It is also a tiny program - only 5-6 composition students, generally, in the entire conservatory. There are more, however, in the college itself. But there are no formal classes where they all get together, except for the very occasional composition seminars where they bring in outside composers, and at the biannual composition concert - which features composers in both programs. Oberlin, on the other hand, is more of a conventional undergrad program (all this subject to change with the new chair) - with a sequence of study that includes writing specific assignments, in specific styles, as exercises. It may, as well, have more curriculum requirements in counterpoint, orchestration, etc. Oberlin, also, in the past at least, did not offer private lessons in the beginning - instead it was group study. (This was one reason my son did not consider it.)

The other difference is that Bard Conservatory, as a grad style program, only admits already accomplished composers who are well along on the journey - commissions, performances, private lessons, often prizes. Oberlin, being bigger, and offering a more foundational program of study, accepts many more students for its larger program and accepts students more at the beginning of the process who show promise. Those students, at Bard, would be in the college and not in the conservatory.

@Compdad is the expert on the current state of things at Oberlin Conservatory and I hope he chimes in for future readers.

5

Oberlin’s composition department falls under “Contemporary Music”, as does TIMARA.
http://new.oberlin.edu/conservatory/departments/
http://new.oberlin.edu/conservatory/departments/composition/
There is also a two year grad program in contemporary performance, which means those musicians are nice to have around. (“Conventional” is not an adjective I would have used for Oberlin, because was long focused on a kind of Eurocentric modernism. Again, that may be changing…)

Oberlin also has an undergrad program in jazz studies, which includes jazz composition. And a BM, MM and artist diploma in historical performance.

I assume that writing in different styles, in the exercises that Spirit Manager mentions, are part of a theory and/or analysis foundational curriculum, rather than part of the composition work, but Compdad can clarify. There are lots and lots of opportunities to have pieces played.

Some PhD programs have students study with several professors, one each term, in order to find the best fit, so the lack of an assigned private teacher has pros and cons. Many students arrive to any school as an undergrad, without a lot of knowledge of 20th and 21st century works, and that first year at Oberlin is a chance to be exposed to many different composers and aesthetics- and then choose a teacher and focus.

Bard’s website has a conservatoyr core sequence in theory, analysis and composition, and for those entering after 2010 it looks like there are two aural skills classes required. (Spirit Manager, did your son test out of some of this?)

The students we know at both schools were talented and many had accomplishments under their belt, though, at the undergrad level, and often even at the grad level, it really is about the music portfolio.

Of course, Bard is in NY, and Oberlin is in Ohio: both are relatively near large cities, and both have very supportive student bodies.

The main differences that we focused on (back some years) were

  1. Bard requires a double degree with a major in another academic area. Because of this it might be that more composers end up in the BA program than at Oberlin.

  2. Bard requires participation with an instrument, and Oberlin doesn’t. It is possible to enter Oberlin Conservatory for composition and never touch an instrument. But there are performance opportunities at both places. We went to a phenomenal theater production at Oberlin where a conservatory pianist accompanied and was fantastic. Bard most likely offers similar varied opportunities.

Sorry to repeat myself. If you are a person who is unsure of what you would major in in another academic area, I would talk to Oberlin and see if your merit aid would continue at the same level if you only did composition. If possible, you could then enter Oberlin Conservatory but have the option later of adding a BA major. This seems better, to me anyway, than entering with a double degree plan and thinking you might later drop it. You can easily add the BA at Oberlin I believe.

I am assuming you are considering a dual degree so you have a practical “back up” but maybe you have other reasons. If that is the reason, many of us on this forum will urge you to go right ahead and do the BM only if you want.

6

In answer to @Compmom’s post above:

There is no requirement at Bard for composers to perform on an instrument. No idea why that is part of the application process. I think there was an idea when the conservatory first formed that the composition students would play each other’s work, perhaps.

Bard College’s music program offers jazz studies and jazz composition. Conservatory students can take every course offered in the college.

They added aural skills after my son entered and he never took those classes. It was not an issue for him in grad school, as he’d studied privately before undergrad.

The theory sequence required in the conservatory is one of the main differences between students int he conservatory and those in the college. Conservatory Seminar is a hybrid class which combines everything - and usually is centered on whatever the conservatory orchestra happens to be playing. There is a counterpoint sequence built into it. And a few required pieces to be written. However, the four semester seminar is for all conservatory students, not just the composers - and can be taken out of sequence. Composers are exempted from the 4th semester - as it is composition. (All performance students must compose at Bard Conservatory.)

When I use the word ‘conventional’ I don’t mean in aesthetics - only in structure. The conservatory program for composers is pretty loose and, actually, rather minimal in requirements in comparison to other conservatories.

7

Just kidding about the “conventional” :slight_smile:

The curriculum mentioned performance requirements.
Bachelor of Music Degree
The requirements (by semester) of the bachelor of music degree in the Conservatory are:
•Studio Instruction (all)
•Aural Skills (two)
•Conservatory Seminar (four)
•Music History (two)
•Chamber Music (all)*
•Orchestra (all)*
•Graduation Recital
*performance majors only

Now that I found my glasses I see that the asterisk indicates chamber music and orchestra are requirements only for performance majors!!!

So do they still require composers to audition on an instrument? Just curious. We assumed that requirement meant required instrumental performance and never had that cleared up- way back when. To the OP, sorry for the tangent.

And apologies for my dated info. Spirit Manager is an expert on Bard and Compdad on Oberlin…Trying to help with the Oberlin info but defer to Compad.

8

Yes, no required chamber music or orchestra for composition students at Bard. It looks like they may now require a concert of the composer’s music for graduation - they didn’t in my S’s time - but that seems like a good thing to me!
So, out of 10 semesters of 4-5 classes each (40-50 classes,) only 17 classes are required for composition students - the other 23-33 are for the second degree and electives (many of which can be taken in the music department.) Also, I’m not sure that Aural Skills actually counts as a full class. It would be interesting to compare the requirements for the composition degree at Oberlin - how many required classes…

9

Spiritmanager, compmom, thank you both so much! This information has been extraordinarily invaluable. I apologize for being somewhat unresponsive.
Hartke just shared some links with me that outline the changes in course distribution more clearly --here’s one: http://catalog.oberlin.edu/mime/download.pdf?catoid=36&ftype=2&foid=1120

Bard does require an instrumental audition (well, sort of). You play for the composition faculty instead of the performance faculty. The guidelines for this on the Bard website are rather ambiguous; I believe it says something like “bring a portfolio of your works and be prepared to play a piece on an instrument of your choice.” I improvised over a jazz standard and then Joan Tower wanted to hear something classical so I played a Brahms rhapsody. No sight reading or anything like that.

I’ll be visiting both schools again in the next few weeks and hope to find some clarity!

Again, many thanks to you both. This has been very helpful!

10

The comp course distribution provided by Hartke is interesting in that it adds an extra year of composition class and one less year of composition studio. I would thought Hartke would changed it in the other direction and have 4 studio years. Composition students at Oberlin have some of the largest work loads of any of the conservatory students. This will not decrease under the new distribution requirements. SpiritManager is right that Oberlin is more of a structured major than at many conservatories. But that does not mean a lack of performance opportunities. Oberlin is an amazing musical environment. There are more formal performance concerts at least a couple of times each semester. Several of the ensembles also do readings on a regular basis, all of which are recorded. However, there are several less formal venues that students organize concerts of their music including on campus as well as in Cleveland through an Oberlin founded organization called the Syndicate.for the New Arts. Getting student players for performances is easy as there is a very strong of comradery amongst conservatory students

Conservatory and students in the College share dorms, co-ops and dining halls, but friendships tend to be with other conservatory students since so much time is spent there.

Conservatory students audition for secondary lessons on their non-major instruments. The results determine the level of teacher and whether credit will be given. Most likely, lessons will be with no less than a Performance Certificate student, although it could be different for jazz piano.

Intramural sports are strong for a college its size. Ultimate Frisbee is the national sport of Oberlin.

11

Sounds like there are more organized performance opportunities at Oberlin than at Bard, which I expected. It was the one weakness of Bard’s program. However, I think that now at Bard, since my S’s time, there are more sanctioned performances by the conservatory musicians - more collaborations between them.

It also sounds like Oberlin composers stay within the conservatory community more than at Bard, as composers don’t actually spend a lot of time with the classical performance students since they’re not in ensembles together. Only the Conservatory Seminars and the aural skills classes are exclusively conservatory students.

@Compdad - you’re saying that composition students at Oberlin are in group classes for two years and then have private lessons for two years? This is a major difference between the two programs since at Bard Conservatory there are no group classes at all, and all lessons are with the private teacher from the first week for the entire five years.

Another difference between Bard Conservatory and most other composition programs is that there are no set requirements to write anything in particular. Most programs expect a certain number of pieces per semester, written for an assigned instrumentation. This can be useful to quickly build up one’s repertoire, if needed - especially if short pieces for small groupings which can get performed often and easily. Or to make sure one has a bunch of orchestra pieces under one’s wing (Curtis requires that.) At Bard, on the other hand, you could probably write one piece for four years, for any possible instrumentation. No requirement to have it performed, and no juries. Although, since there is a senior recital now, at least one piece would need to be finished enough to be played! I’m not saying you could skate by without composing anything - but there are no set rules or expectation of what they would need to be, nor how long it could take to compose it. As I’ve stated before - there is a lot of freedom in Bard’s program making it more like a graduate program (one without many requirements.) The only required compositions for my son were in the music theory portion of the Conservatory Seminars.

In other words - I think Bard Conservatory best serves a self-driven composer - one who wants feedback and a sounding wall from great teachers - but for whom composing is an internal compulsion. The composition program in Bard College would be better for a composer who needs more structure and directive. As would Oberlin Conservatory’s program.

12

Nice comparison SpiritManager and I think on as to the differences. It looks like from what was posted by the OP that an extra year was added to formal comp classes and private study starts 3rd year. That is a big change from the past at Oberlin. Oberlin has juries each year with formal recitals 3rd and 4th years.

13

I noticed there is an ensemble requirement in this course plan, so I believe that is a change since we looked at Oberlin, though I don’t know when it was instituted.

There are some benefits to a (assuming quite small) group composition class. The group can have a lot of cross-pollination and learn from one another, and it builds community. A student composer can have more of his or her ideas challenged, during the process of composing, and, often receive more multi-faceted support. And often there is access to individual advice outside of the class, during office hours, for instance. So I would not assume that this change is a negative.

I think that, in retrospect, it is easier to see undergrad work as foundational and exploratory. When students get a lot of attention as high school composers, it is hard to see it that way. Developing an authentic individual “voice” takes many years and some patience. It is helpful for some, during this time, to see themselves as students, not mature composers, and recognize there are still many years of development ahead. With this view, two years of a small group lesson might be a plus.

But then there are those, as Spirit Manager implies, who are ready to forge ahead as a career composer at an earlier age, who might find a group process frustrating, or have other factors that might influence this choice.

It is interesting that neither college has a grad school. In that sense, both Bard and Oberlin are essentially preparing students for grad school, but have different approaches. The structure of Oberlin is one way, and the freedom of Bard another. In each case, access to liberal arts courses further broadens preparation and development, so it’s all good, whichever you choose!

14

Compmom and SpiritManager are wonderful leaders/advisors on matters such as this that I can never be. I can only throw in a few facts/observations and then they add the substance. Very nice! One thing I would like to add regarding Oberlin is the terrific Professional Development office within the Conservatory. Amongst things it is very strong in teaching the composer is Grant Writing, something very important to composers.