I believe the intended meaning of this is to state that Manhattan’s population has been declining.
Manhattan’s peak population was 2,331,542.
In 1920.
I live in the NYC metro area and was disturbed by the stabbing murder of the Barnard student in a nearby park. Vanderbilt always ranks highly in those “happiest students” rankings. I would choose Vandy, but as everyone says it’s up to you.
1 Like
If OP makes the decision based on each college’s host city’s crime rate, it’s a no-brainer: Barnard.
1 Like
Absolutely, the tragic case of Tessa is a stark reminder that life in a big city requires someone to become “city smart”. Naturally, it’s the attackers that carry the blame - but just as there are do’s and don’ts in a rural area, anyone living in a big city can do things to “manage” city-specific risks.
As far as all the various “hitparades” that pop up from all kind of sources - accurately “measuring” happiness is probably on the more problematic side (for one, it all depends on participation, and how much that might be encouraged/promoted).
US News happens to put Barnard above Vanderbilt in “First Year Experiences” - sounds great, until one reads the methodology and wonders how relevant that list truly is.
Given the “fuzzy” nature of these lists, it’s probably not a great way for any individual student to make important decisions, because with their personality and background, they might have been more happy, that year, at a different college.
Don’t see any Vandy students murdered near campus in the past few years but all colleges must disclose their student crime statistics due to the Clery Act.
I think the point they were trying to make, was the likelihood of falling victim to a violent crime - including murder.
While a single case seems like a 100% difference, one’s personal risk is not controlled by that particular coincidence (the fact that a victim happen to attend a nearby college) on the timeline.
One’s personal risk rises with the crimes in the different metro areas, as people venture out “into town”, or possible even choose to live/shop “off campus” as upper-class(wo)men.
So looking at the crime rate of the city is more informative that counting 1 case over 0 cases, e.g.:
A lightening strike that kills someone whom you happen to know, on a golf course, doesn’t make your town more dangerous than lightening strikes elsewhere. One does not need to avoid your town, one just needs to avoid walking across any golf course in a thunderstorm.
1 Like
Let’s move on from crime rates. The OP can research this point herself.
Hopefully the OP will exercise caution in whatever city she ends up attending college.
2 Likes
From a prestige angle, just considering Barnard vs. Vanderbilt, I think they are equal – T20 LAC vs. T20 U.
But when you add all Columbia U has to offer, it tips the prestige a bit in Barnard’s favor… probably also academically, as Columbia is truly a world academic powerhouse. That diploma is going to say Columbia University on it.
I only mention that because others had brought up prestige. I don’t think you should consider it in your decision – both are plenty prestigious.
This, to me, is about:
- Socioenvironmental fit
- Academic fit
- Cost
Prioritize those and make the decision accordingly, and you can’t make a bad decision. Frankly, you could probably flip a coin and end up fine, as long as both are affordable.
5 Likes
i’d just add something a friend brought up recently regarding single sex education. Her daughter applied to and was accepted by multiple women’s colleges (all very strong including Barnard). She was afraid that single sex education would be look on as obsolete in the years ahead. It’s an interesting thought. And her daughter ultimately chose a co-ed college experience.
Will women’s colleges be viewed differently in 30-40 years. Will they still exist? Does anyone have examples of how not going to college with men and women together hurt them? helped them? Other? I guess it could be a very big factor. But I have no opinion as I never attended a single sex school. My spouse did, for high school and thinks it’s a terrible idea. So there are definitely people on both sides of this issue.
1 Like
It may be the case that one answer does not fit all.
It may also be the case that parental or self selection does not necessarily place students for whom coed versus non-coed matters optimally in coed versus non-coed schools.
You can have the best of both worlds:
Attend Vanderbilt and do Summer internships in NYC…
2 Likes
I think that either school will provide an excellent education nd college experience. There is no wrong choice here.
That said, if one wanted to talk about prestige/reputation, it depends on what your audience is. I would bet that I know a number of college-educated, professional workers who don’t know what Barnard is, but who also don’t know much, if anything, about Columbia either. Going to Columbia would not be viewed as much prestigious than Santa Clara or DePaul or any other private university that was historically more known regionally than nationally. They know the Ivy League (but couldn’t name all the schools in it) so maybe someone might name-drop the league, but then again, people might consider it snooty/putting on airs if you did. Living where I do in the south, Vanderbilt is probably better-known by lay people for academics than Columbia is.
That said, grad schools know these places. Major employers know these places. Pick the one that works best for you.
1 Like
If you told me 5 years ago that my daughter would even consider a women’s college, I would have dismissed that outright - but in the case of Barnard specifically (the only she applied to), it made sense, looking back. Once she was there, I realized it was nothing that I expected: Instead of forming a “protective bubble” to shut out the “real world”, the college is fully integrated, so that it can aggressively affect the real-world and further an attitude that much still needs to be done.
Women’s colleges continue to be relevant and even necessary as long as there are gender disparities in certain fields and pay inequalities. Among other things, they will create faculty and management positions for which men might typically be favored, and actively lift up young women who otherwise might have not chosen certain academic and professional paths.
Speaking crudely, it teaches bright women not to accept second-best and certainly never to “take sh*t” from anyone. And in a macro-sense, that’s what Barnard is showcasing in its relationship with Columbia: Refusing to fall in line by rejecting any advances/coercions, maintaining its organizational and financial independence. Instead Barnard prefers to pay its own way; about $6 to $7 Mio are paid each year to Columbia University under an intercorporate agreement for the exchange of services.
That’s why Barnard happens to fall outside the norm, because it combines the benefits of both:
You literally are “going to college with men and women”, your boyfriend can even spend the night in your dorm (assuming there are no reasonable objections by your room mate).
In a sense, one can almost think of Barnard to be a supersized/well-funded/no-hazing sorority at co-ed Columbia University - except that it’s not only supporting its members “socially”, and you don’t have to “rush”.
6 Likes
It’s what Radcliffe was when it was separate from Harvard: Harvard, but also more.
2 Likes
I’m sure people asked this same question 30-40 years ago. I can’t see women’s colleges disappearing. And who can predict the future? Did anyone ask such questions about the men who first attended Vassar back in 1969? Why does it matter if a woman graduates from a women’s college? Those colleges have very healthy endowments and I don’t see them going anywhere. No one is going to think “Hmm, she graduated from Barnard, too bad she didn’t choose Vanderbilt instead.”
To address another issue that has come up here, when people turn to “crime rates” to reinforce that one college is better than another, I immediately tune out. I doubt many people say no to either of these colleges because of crime rates. Most college crime occurs on campus and is due to alcohol, and often closely related to it, sexual assault. If one wants to be nit picky, it’s very easy to argue that Vandy is enormously more dangerous than Barnard, simply due to the presence of men. I don’t see many people saying no to Stanford and a couple of notorious crimes there.
Prestige is mostly irrelevant once a student has had a real job. Employers care about skills and not so much where a student got a degree from.
5 Likes
Interesting. I can see both sides on this one and have no skin in the game. Not sure why you would label a non-single sex college as second best. And some of the other things regarding balance and the glass ceiling haven’t been resolved (not sure I see any connection to single sex/both sex education and the glass ceiling). But I can see why some are more comfortable there.
I always thought it odd that women of a certain age who graduated from Radcliffe said they graduated from Harvard though it was before women were admitted. But, again I’m sure that they figured out that it made more of an impression or maybe the name was better known in more circles. Just struck me as odd. I wonder if the women of Barnard say that or Columbia. I know only one Barnard grad and she says Barnard. I think this speaks volumes also.
Barnard seems like a good fit for a woman who wants to be in single sex classes and still have access to other classes as well. Also, does seems to offer pluses and minuses as any school does. It’s great that there are so many options for students.
Just to clarify: students at Columbia and Barnard can easily cross register, with certain exceptions. So if you are a Barnard student (as my daughter is), there will be men in your Barnard classes and there will be men in your Columbia classes (she takes classes from both schools). Most clubs are co-ed (and Columbia/Barnard together).
Vandy is a fantastic school. But it’s in a self-contained campus in a very different part of the country. If I were choosing between these two transfers, I’d want to know more about faculty advising, social life (eg sororities are not a big part of Barnard’s social life; don’t know the situation for Vandy), and my specific major. I wouldn’t worry about crime rates (for the reasons listed above) or prestige (they are more or less on par).
3 Likes
Again, there are no “single sex” classes at Barnard !?
All the students from the three traditional undergraduate schools at Columbia University (Barnard College, Columbia College, and Fu College) are graduating together with diplomas and degrees from Columbia University, after having taken the same classes by the same faculty (Barnard professors are also University professors).
Consequently it’s equally appropriate for a student to state that they attended “(fill in your name) college”, and they graduated from Columbia University.
For résumés, it is indeed suggested to use “xxxx College, Columbia University” (however, I would assume that Columbia College students will avoid the repetition).
A women’s college is implicitly dedicated to advancing high-achieving women, specifically. The glass-ceiling metaphor originally was coined to describe the barriers that high-achieving women face in “a men’s world”.
4 Likes
Seems like you have a particular bias for your daughter’s school. I get it. Parents love their children and tend to think their kids schools are excellent choices. The language and approach seems a bit extreme. But I get it, you are a super fan.
Somethings amiss. I get it. Men can register for Barnard classes and do. Ok. Well then going back to your thread, what is the advantage then to it being a women’s college? Not confused on my end. But not a buyer into most of your post either. But I think that there is zero advantage based on the sex of the people in the class. All men, all women, mostly men, mostly women. It really depends on the individual. You are not going to break down socio-economic barriers/glass ceilings and all the rest based on the sex of the people you studied with. If that were the case, it would have already happened as Smith, MH, Wellesley etc have been around a long, long time and have educated some seriously academic women.