IMO Forbes tends to focus more on outcomes, USN on the status of incoming students and the college’s resources.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinehoward/2016/07/06/top-colleges-ranking-2016-the-full-methodology/#7aadc8ee5b82
The least likely way to find a good college fit is to rely on someone else’s ranking of schools. Moreover, ranking points tend to have little to no differentiation. Just look how many “ties” there are in US News and World Report. Very little of either ranking has to do with the education itself, and what little weight that is given is not likely to be numerically valid (asking competitors and guidance counselors to rate education is suspect) and certainly not testable.
What everyone is saying is that the education (which is in part subjectively obtained anyway) is not materially different at these three schools, unless one has a major of interest that another lacks. The best way to rank the schools for your own use is to visit them and see which one speaks to you.
@gointhruaphase Interesting to hear that from your perspective Bates ‘closed the gap’. D got mixed feelings in the tours about the academics at the 3 schools. She loved the vibe at Bates, but definitely felt a less academically rigorous than Bowdoin and to some extent Colby. Of course, this was based on a tour that was 2-3 hours long so its really hard to put weight into the vibes. However, the average SAT scores at Bates are significantly lower than both Bowdoin and Colby, and I can’t see how that does not affect classroom discussions. Any further insight?
@4junior, the closing the gap comment related to my impression from many years back and where it is now – totally unscientific. I’ll bet, however, that the notion of academic rigor is highly subjective. Put differently, you get out of your education whatever you are willing to put in. There probably are some at Bowdoin who cruise through with “good enough” grades, just as there are some who work triple time at community colleges. If you asked alums of any of these colleges how hard they worked, I’ll bet they think their classes were much more rigorous than at the other two schools. I suspect the academic program at all three is plenty rigorous.
That is a long way of saying that you need to assess fit on your own, without regard to statistics or scores. For example, average SAT scores mean relatively little at an SAT optional school, because you almost have to assume the applicants that did not submit scores made that choice because their scores would not have helped them with admissions (i.e., their scores were lower than average). Personally, I do not believe that single sitting test scores have much to do with native intelligence, creativity or academic achievement, so I don’t think that would result in less academic rigor or creative class discussions. Others may disagree. However, if you saw or felt something during your tour that led you to that conclusion, trust your instincts. That is the best way to find fit.
@gointhruaphase and @crewdad I guess part of what is mixing me up is the very different info found online for scores at each school. For instance if you google Bates SAT scores the first thing that comes up is a site called collegedata.com which lists the scores as 1,150 low 25% and 1390 as high 75%. This settled in my mind that the Bates scores are much lower than Coby or Bowdoin. However, when I look at the Bates site itself they list the spread as 1380-1460 “for those who submitted scores”. I can’t tell if the collegedata.com figures are incorrect, or if they encompass the non-submitters for a more accurate read of the actual scores? As a parent of a D who tests poorly I am totally with you that SAT are not a reliable measure of intelligence or performance. But I would say that if it is true that 25% of the Bates kids scored under 1,150 I cannot imagine that this does not affect the classroom experience? Truly not trying to be a snob or elitist, just trying to see what the reality is…
@4junior
The Bates website lists the scores of the accepted students.
CollegeData is reporting matriculated students scores.
The CDS reports the scores of matriculated students, which is where CollegeData, US News, etc., obtain the information that they report.
Page #10 http://www.bates.edu/research/files/2010/03/cds1617.pdf
You can Google common data set and the school name to get an up to date version of these numbers for any school. I believe it is normal to show the percentage of students in each 100 point group for each part of the test. It doesn’t show total scores.
Last year’s report for Bates shows 34% with scores under 600 in reading, 32% in math. And 46% with ACT of 29 or below.
Bowdoin is test optional, and it’s 11% and 13% for the SAT and 20% for the ACT.
Both have been test optional for decades so have established methods of evaluating applicants.
@CrewDad Wow, I must say I find that extremely disingenuous!!! I think there is a strong likelihood that many many people infer that the scores on Bates website reflects the students at the school. Is this a common practice? I see the Midd lists the “enrolled students” scores and also has links to the CDS. I must say this obfuscation really makes me feel much more poorly about Bates!
@4junior, don’t blame that on Bates. A lot of schools advertise the scores of admitted students rather than matriculating students. It’s just something consumers need to be aware of.
The only way to compare schools is by the common data sets (which incidentally, is why they call them “common”). I did compare the common data set scores for Bates and Colby. Unfortunately, the data set for Colby was 2015-16, while Bates was 2016-17 – not a perfect comparison. That said, you are correct that the scores for Bates are lower than for Colby, by about 50 points lower at the 25th percentile and about 30 points higher on the 75th percentile, with two points lower on the 25 percentile for the ACT.
It is entirely up to you whether that matters at all.
@gointhruaphase Thanks for the info on Colby.
Honestly two wrongs don’t make a right on this, in my mind anyway. Savvy parents who spend hours on chat boards like this are a tiny fraction of the parents of the applicant pool. D looked at Bates website and thinks their scores are in line with other schools she is interested in. She has no idea what a common data set is. I didn’t until this week. I am sure there are many others who do not.
It would be easy for Bates to make it clear what their numbers refer to. In this case I feel omission is tantamount to a lie. Sorry to have such harsh words but for a school I thought was very ethics based this really rocks my view of them. Other schools D is considering strongly - Bowdoin, Midd, Hamilton, Haverford - all make it clear whether stats refer to accepted kids or attending kids. It would be easy for Bates to do so as well.
I thought the CDS always show accepted students. You have to search for the 2016 class profile to find the kids who actually matriculated at any school. It’s usually on each schools website, but not always easy to find.
@homerdog The CDS shows enrolled students. Does not include those accepted who declined the spot. Sometimes a school will issue a press release when acceptances go out, touting the test scores, and then once they have the final enrolled students figured out, the scores can sometimes drop
Colby clearly reports optimistic scores as well. It could be that they (as other schools seem to do as well) report superscored numbers or that they otherwise massage the numbers.
For instance, on Colby’s self-reported profile page they list their middle 50% ACT scores as 31-33.
https://www.colby.edu/admission/college-profile/
On the Common data set, which doesn’t allow score mixing, the 50% is listed as 29-32.
http://www.colby.edu/administration_cs/ir/upload/Final-15-16-CDS.pdf
Likewise, the 75% composite SAT score Colby lists in its profile is higher than the combination of the 75% subscores listed in the CDS, which even if superscored should be below that higher composite.
The bottom line for me is not to pay too much attention to the scores. In most cases you’ll be comparing plums and bananas.
@homerdog Bates SAT scores are a full 230 points lower than reported on their site. That’s not a rounding error.
@Sue22 Thanks for that info. It seems that both Bates and Colby are trying to boost their status. I have no problem with superscored numbers but my guess is this is not about that. While I respect these schools trying to attract higher scoring applicants and matriculation this is not a transparent dissemination of information.
I would disagree that paying attention to scores is not important but that is less what upsets me about what I learned on this thread. Even if it is only about the ethics involved this has been a very instructional thread for me.
4junior, it helps if you add a link so we all know what we’re referring to.
As I said, comparing the test scores at test option to test required schools can be less than useful. For instance, the scores you may have found here:
https://www.bates.edu/admission/student-profile/
are for students who submitted scores. Many students don’t submit scores and are instead admitted based on high grades and strong recommendation. For statistical use the school asks non submitters for their scores after they’ve been admitted and have committed to the school. Those scores are mixed into the information submitted to the Common Data Set.
The CDS is the best place to get information that’s as consistent across schools as possible.
@sue22, who knows. Until the common data set can be consulted, it is impossible to confirm or deny. Colby is becoming increasing selective, so those numbers are possible. All I would say is, does it matter? The Claremont colleges had a reputation of misrepresenting their numbers to US News and nothing happened. I know of someone who applied to Pitzer and withdrew their application to make room for other applicants. Pitzer still sent a waitlist letter despite the withdrawal of the application, and you can bet that landed in the rejection numbers they publish.
Bottom line, base your decision on the school that you love, and where the numbers suggest that you could get in, not on the numbers of other applicants that may or may not be correct.
@Sue22 Colby’s self-reported profile page is for the class of '21
The CDS represents the class of '20
Actually, there’s nothing in the rules that disallow reporting superscored ACT/SATs
^CrewDad, you appear to be right. The CDS used to have explicit language about not mixing tests taken on different dates but it seems they’ve dropped that. More evidence that trying to choose a school by its reported test scores may not serve a student well.
As usual, very sage advice. I hope parents and students heed your advice.