Beatin a tired SAT pony ...

Colleges & Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
1

<p>Anyone see Bob Schieffer’s (sp?) CBS’ diss of the SATs tonite? </p>

<p>I know we’ve been there, wrote that before, but CBS reported, w/ UVA being an exception (up 9 pts.), Cal and many other u’s. saw declines in their SAT scores using the new format, which they called a “disaster.” 'Twas the greatest one-year drop since 1975. </p>

<p>They cameoed the Dean of Admission @ Geo. Mason U., which no longer requires SATs, as concurring with our earlier contention … there is virtually no correlation between SAT scores and collegiate success. </p>

<p>The report noted the “myth” of so many decades portraying the SAT as one of the sacred gospels of the college admission process. We’ve found even in this enlightened forum, many who worship at the altar of the College Board. </p>

<p>And they also noted several other points:</p>

<li><p>That with an increase of nearly 50% in cost to take the test (41.50 up from 28.50) fewer were retaking, understandably. </p></li>
<li><p>And that the average improvement for retakes is 30 points. Retakes may help, but most see no miracles. And that was central to our earlier discussion.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Sadly, no matter what we think about the SATs, and as we seem to agree … it doesn’t matter what the facts reveal, the SAT and/or ACT are here and now, not soon to evaporate. </p>

<p>btw … Conversely, there was a substantial INCREASE in ACT scores last year, again confirming what many have suggested, i.e. take th ACT in lieu of SAT.</p>

2

<p>I do not think the Service Academies over weight the SATs scores in the admission process. According to the book: The Naval Academy Candidate Handbook by William Smallwood, on page 91 it states that 60% of the Whole person score is based on Class Rank! Sixty percent! Sixty percent is based on 1 category! The rest of the 40% is made up of (in this order) Math SAT, Verbal SAT, Teacher recommendations and I forget the other 3 categories. This means that the other 6 factors combined only make up 40%. So it is reasonable to conclude that standardized test scores make up at most around 20% of the score and possibly less. This is not a whole heck of a lot of weight on the SAT/ACT.</p>

<p>Why do they weight 60% of your score on the class ranking? The short answer if probably because they have studied this. Their studies have concluded it is the best predictor they have. Personally I think this is nuts and it doesn't make sense to weight class rank that much - given variances from high school to high school. But what matters to the Academies is selecting people who will stick it out as separations are costly. In short I think they know what they are doing. But in IMHO if anything they are underweighting the SAT/ACT. </p>

<p>Incidentally, in an earlier post, I cited a page of research documents conducted for the USNA. One of the documents studied what statistics could be used to predict students who where likely to need academic assistance during plebe year. The study found that SAT score (and class rank) was a useful predictor of students who were likely to need academic assistance and suggested they use it as a means to identify these students earlier so they could intervene earlier. </p>

<p>The abstract from the study states:</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
"Each graduating class from the United States Naval Academy experiences an attrition rate of approximately 24 percent. A significant portion of that attrition is attributed to academic difficulties. The Academy provides various programs such as the Plebe Intervention Program (PIP) to assist midshipmen experiencing academic difficulty. The purpose of this study was to develop an empirical approach to selecting first- year Naval Academy Midshipmen for academic intervention based upon objective initial entry data. Categorical values from the Learning and Study Strategies Inventory (LASSI), SAT scores and high school rank were incorporated as independent variables in a linear regression with dependent variable Cumulative Quality Point Rating (CQPR). Two regression analyses were conducted to develop the final equation. Results of the 2nd regression indicate class standing, individualized SAT Math and SAT verbal scores were highly significant..."

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>It just might be that although the SAT scores would not be that useful in determining who is going to stick it out for all 4 years, it could be useful as the study above suggests, indetermining who is more likely to have academic difficulty. </p>

<p>But as you stated in a similar thread, we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.</p>

3

<p>For USNA purposes, it makes no difference whether you take the SAT or ACT. USNA will use the highest verbal and highest math score, period. </p>

<p>However, in some parts of the country, one test is clearly more popular. Thus, doing well in that test is important for noms. For example, in the mid-Atlantic, people instinctively know what a 600/650 SAT means (the numbers have meaning to them based on their experience). If you tell people around here that you got a 27/29 ACT, they'll look at you blankly for a minute and then might ask how that compares to the SAT (or they'll have to look at a comparison chart). The numbers mean nothing (to most) because we're not as familiar with that test. In the midwest, where ACT is more popular, the situation may be reversed.</p>

<p>It's really a comfort issue. People selecting candidates for nominations took a certain test, their friends took that same test, their kids took that same test, etc. For this reason, I advise candidates to retake the test most common in their area if their scores aren't great -- not to get into USNA but to help them get a nom.</p>

<p>Also, there are complaints all of the time about standardized tests. They're not good predictors, they're biased (gender/race, etc.). However, for better or worse, they represent one way to compare a disparate group of people. And, until something better comes along, will likely continue to be used for that purpose despite their acknowledged shortcomings.</p>

4

<p>I've never understood the arguments against these tests.</p>

<p>Either you know that two parallel lines cut by a transversal give you equal alternate interior angles, or you don't. You either know what "alacrity" means, or you don't.</p>

<p>If you do, you get a better score than if you don't. Considering that you've supposedly been in High School for at least 2 years before taking this exam, and considering the number of books and side courses available to prepare for this exam, I have no pity for those who whine when they blow it.</p>

<p>Welcome to reality, people! The world will hold you accountable based upon what you KNOW and what you CAN DO, not where you were born or how much your parents made (unless, of course, you get into the professional politics and/or advocacy business, in which case they won't discriminate against you on the grounds of ability, either).</p>

<p>Study hard, take the damned test, and do WELL in it, then you won't have to WORRY about it as much! The responsibility to meet the standards is YOURS, NOT ANYONE ELSE'S.</p>

<p>SHEESH! :mad:</p>

5

<p>So, Z, tell us how you really feel. :)</p>

6

<p>its not as cut and dry as "you know it or dont." the questions, especially the ones towards the end of each section are worded to trick you. There is no problem on the math section that i dont laugh at how easy the actual math in it is, yet i still have managed to only score a 650. I just think it is ridiculous that you should have to take a course on how to take this test.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
So, Z, tell us how you really feel. :)

[/quote]

Believe me, I was being polite.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I just think it is ridiculous that you should have to take a course on how to take this test.

[/quote]

You don't have to take the course to learn how to take the test. You take the course and learn how to think through and solve problems that aren't necessarily cut-and-dry. It's called REALITY. Sadly, they don't do that much in High School these days.</p>

<p>Rarely, if ever, is a problem in the real world as simple as "calculate the value of X" when given the formula. You have to work through the problem and find the formula, THEN calculate, ensuring you don't miss a crucial detail in the process. It's the same complaint people have about word problems. Yeah, they're more difficult because they are more REAL. You have to THINK rather than act like a robot.</p>

<p>I took the GRE after buying the Barron's GRE book and doing the sample exams. Thank God I did, because I would have miserably bilged the exam. Why? Because I had never been exposed to the types of questions in that exam (certainly not for at least 5 years). Instead, I scored extremely well on it and believe me, it makes the SAT look like a cakewalk. The ability to think my way through those problems was not only developed using that book and taking the practice exams, but has been directly applied more times than I can count since I've been in industry. </p>

<p>You will find that "trick questions" are more common than you think. Wait until you're taking Statics, and the question on the exam looks to be so simple as to be a joke. You blow through the formula but get the WRONG answer. Later you discover that the tensions on the cables were given in pounds but the final answer required that the moment about Point A be given in Newton-Meters. If you think that's a foul trick, go talk to NASA, who lost the Mars Observer for PRECISELY the same reason: SOMEONE DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE UNITS.</p>

<p>Do you have any idea how many tests and quizzes I bombed because I didn't learn that lesson until it was too late? :(</p>

<p>Another classic example (again, NASA) is the Hubble Space Telescope. A BEAUTIFULY ground mirror, polished to an INSANE level of precision. An absolute work of engineering artistry. Except, of course, that they had ground the mirror to the WRONG CURVE (i.e. - they got the FORMULA wrong)! OOPS!</p>

<p>Learn to take the damned test and stop complaining about it. You'll be better off.</p>

8

<p>It's sort of like Winston Churchill's take on democracy -- the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.</p>

9

<p>One of the things the SAT and ACT tests do is to allow the Admissions Office to put a potential cadet's class rank and grade point in perspective. There are some high schools out there that are highly selective college preparatory schools. How do you compare a class rank of a kid that has a graduating class in which one-half of the students are recognized by the National Merit Program, twenty percent are National Merit Finalists and all go onto college to the class rank of a kid that graduates from a high school where no students are recognized by the National Merit Program and fifty percent of the kids don't go to college? That is not to say that the kid that went to the the lesser academic high school isn't smart or doesn't deserve to go to a service academy. What it does do is let the Admissions Office compare one measure of intelligence that is given to every candidate. It may not be the best measure out there, but it is the only one that allows an Admissions Office to compare some measure of intelligence to the kid from an intercity school in New York to the farm kid in Iowa or the private high school in Orange County, California. While the SAT and ACT tests are far from perfect, I am in agreement with the previous author that they are the the best thing available at this point to allow an Admission Office to compare apples to apples.</p>

10

<p>FWDAD - Your point is well taken that the SAT/ACT is the only national instrument than can be used comparatively and is objective. The issue in question is one of your presumptions that these tests are a "measure of intelligence". Does it really measure intelligence? or knowledge? or opportunity? or aggressive parents? I am glad that it is only one of many indicators that admission offices use. - FEFC</p>

11

<p>I don't disagree with Socaldreamers observation that it is difficult to say that the the SAT or ACT measures intelligence, knowledge or even, overly aggressive parents. I do think that the two tests measure to some degree the test takers intelligence and knowledge. Scores no doubt improve based on the opportunity in life that a given cadet has enjoyed to that point in time. On the other hand, being an overly aggressive parent myself as far as my three kids' education goes, sometimes pushing your kids helps, but sometimes it actually backfires. In the end however the kid has to stand on his or her own. The parent can't be in the room when the kid takes the test. And a parent can not make a kid want to attend a service academy.</p>

12

<p>"And a parent can not make a kid want to attend a service academy."</p>

<p>Boy THAT's the TRUTH FWDAD.....And I still am not sure every parent out there with either current 2010 Plebes or hopeful 2011 kiddo gets this. There are many paths to a military commission and the Service Academies are by far the toughest and only a personal motivation could ever get you through. Parents...remember to let this decision be 100% your child's either way. Once they make the choice, support them wholeheartedly - but don't let things like prestige, ego, lure of a 'free education' or the like be what drives this decision.</p>

13

<p>Its amazing to me the number of kids that drop out of the service academies during the first couple of weeks that say "I was doing this for my parents" or "I didn't realize it was going to be so much like the military." The kids that seem to do well at a service academy are the ones that make the decision purely on their own and understand what they are getting into...both the good and the bad.</p>

14

<p>FWDAD-</p>

<p>I got one of those kids who wanted USNA for himself more than anything else in the world and he lived and breathed and studied eveything about it and thought he had died and gone to heaven when he received his appointment on March 31,2006. He calls every day, and he has challenges, but they are HIS challenges and he owns them and he has no regrets!</p>

<p>He is living HIS dream, not mine! That's what it takes!</p>