<p>"If this child is not likely to attend an Ivy or Stanford, you don’t have to worry about remedial math courses…even if she remains in the less advanced track. "</p>
<p>-Incorrect. Applicable to everybody who is in science heavy major at any college. it is not calc vs no calc, it is basic understanding of math concepts which is missing. D. was Supplemental Instructor to Chem. prof at her STATE school. She was praised by her prof. for raising grades for her regulars. She said, that most are trying to memorize material where they have to apply math…with most are lacking greatly in math background. She would go back and explain the proper way of learning concept. While math has never been D’s favorite subject (because it is pretty boring in k-12, they do not make it challenging which would help), just something to take for easy A. It all goes back to when they are 7-8 years old. They have major holes in their math, which is nothing complicated, just another language which is used in science, but not taught properly. If math teacher is good, there is no problem, nobody needs special talent to have enough for engineering, we are not talking about Albert Einsteins here. Few will ever come close to this level, most need math just to pursue their passions for engineering, medicine and other fields. However, not everybody in last category will go to Elite schools, and those who do not, still need solid math background.</p>
<p>Our S was an engineering major yet did not take the highest level of calculus, only took AP Calc A/B in HS. He also took AP Physics A/B and C, as well as AP Comp Sci–2 semesters He opted not to challenge the engineering department, which gave him the max 60 credits when he entered due to all the APs he took but he was still placed at retaking ALL his math & science. He did great and didn’t have to stress because it was all review & allowed him a nice cushion academically for the 1st 3 semesters of engineering. He had a friend from another HS with same AP prep who also repeated the courses in engineering but struggled & switched to psych.</p>
<p>D ended up taking calc or pre-calc (sorry can’t remember which one any more) in community college. That was the highest math she needed, as she transferred to dream U & is now studying cinema. </p>
<p>There are many paths and one of them will work great for your child. Am sorry you are having so much rigidity with your school–good luck in getting it to work out. We faced more than our share of stresses with our private HS and it got so much better when D left early, took the GED & started CC (not normally a RECOMMENDED path, but it worked for her & us).</p>
<p>I successfully advocated for my special needs child to be put ahead in math in middle school which I think was the right move because it gives the student a stronger foundation going into high school where expectations are higher and support for mainstream students plummets (or, in our case, exists only on paper). </p>
<p>Your best bet is probably to find someone to support your position (like the current math teacher) and ask for that person to be present at the IEP meeting. </p>
<p>In our district, it is also possible to approach it from the point of view that an early introduction will give the student more time to master higher math. In other words, an earlier start means that if your student finds Geometry or Trig too difficult, he would still have time to retake in high school. I would also say that I want her to be on track to be introduced to Algebra concepts in the more supportive environment of middle school-- where she could more easily change classes and where she could have the option of repeating Algebra in 9th. What I found here is that the middle school math teacher was very concerned about the % of students passing the state final. She was concerned that a special ed kid would not pass and affect her pass rate. I successfully advocated to get my kid in the class, but the teacher was a very harsh grader and called numerous IEP meetings to get him out. They only ended when the head of special ed asked at one of those meetings how he had done on the systemwide midterm. When she said he had earned a B+, the head of special ed told her that the meetings were over and he would be in her class all year. Suddenly, she started grading him fairly and his grade went up to an A.</p>
<p>As far as the threat… Of course, you should bring up that your child needs those extra supports but I also wonder how likely your child is to get extra supports in an advanced class in high school. For what it’s worth, putting my kid in advanced or honors classes meant there was no extra support in classes. The school system does not give the school enough special ed teachers and so the ones they have are concentrated in basic classes to help kids who might not graduate. There are accommodations, but those are possible with a 504.</p>
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<p>Inspired, go in and talk to the teacher for the honors class or the head of the dept. Bring in some of your daughter’s written work.</p>
I did this for a couple of years and while it was better than nothing, my son really wanted to 1. not have to spend time in a math class where he already knew the material, 2. wanted not to have to do extra work on top of the regular homework because the school refused to consider a very easy solution. He came home every day complaining he wasn’t learning enough (and yes we talked about homeschooling, but he wanted to be with his friends.) If you were a good skier would you be happy to spend several years on the bunny slope because you were too young to move ahead? No one would ever suggest it, I don’t know why they do in education</p>
<p>Regarding university acceptance for placement of AP tests:</p>
<p>Calculus AB is often accepted as a quarter or semester of calculus. But at some schools, a 5 score is required or recommended to place ahead.</p>
<p>Physics B is useless for engineering majors. Physics C is sometimes accepted, though not always, and sometimes only for the mechanics portion, since electricity and magnetism is often taught with multivariable calculus. Some schools require a 5 score.</p>
<p>Computer Science A is sometimes accepted for one introductory computer science course, but, at some schools, it is not even enough material for that (the older discontinued AB version was more likely to be accepted). Since introductory computer science courses vary considerably from school to school, they may be less likely to match up with each other and AP than other courses.</p>
<p>"Quote:
Just study math with your child at home and she will be way on her merry way math-wise. </p>
<p>I did this for a couple of years and while it was better than nothing, my son really wanted to 1. not have to spend time in a math class where he already knew the material, 2. wanted not to have to do extra work on top of the regular homework"</p>
<p>-No child would want this. However, if you make it a game while driving to various after school EC’s, they will ask for more of it. It is up to you to make it either exciting or another “homework”. Yes, my D. ended up feeling that math is too easy and boring,…all thru college math. However, she also found out that she can apply her math much more successfully in her science classes, she can explain to others how to do it, she had much easier time in these science classes she actually enjoyed them a lot, especially Chem and Bio which led her to think about Medical School. You do not have to love math, however, every single person should know and understand it to have more choices in his life. Just think how limited life of an immigrant who does not know English. It is almost scary. It is too bad that most people do not realize the same about math… it is just another language.</p>
<p>^He was beyond games. Really. He wanted real math. He did lots and lots of math on his own. He taught himself to program computers. Now many years later I can say he turned out fine - dream job etc. But he wasted a huge amount of time in school and it wasn’t necessary.</p>
<p>It really depends on the student and work-ethic/interest in math. In our house all 3 of my kids started with algebra in 7th - and the one who did the best from that path was my oldest who actually missed the cutoff barely and I had to sign a waiver to put her in the class and she hit the ground running and never looked back through MV Calc in 12th (now a MechE major).</p>
<p>D2, finishing her junior year, struggled from the beginning and aced the entrance exam after 6th - she’s hanging in there but moved down to non-honors pre-calc this year and will take AB Calc next year but I do wish we had not pushed her ahead (but she was gung ho to do it, just didn’t share her older sister’s work ethic or natural patience and ability).</p>
<p>Now take S, finishing 8th - he is incredibly gifted in math but seems to have this problem with actually doing the work/turning it in And since higher level math classes count in our district for HS GPA, we opted not to include his algebra grade from last year (you can opt out if you chose to give up the credit). I knew he had learned it well and actually had to sign him into geometry for this year which he is acing. His GC was worried he hadn’t learned algebra but I knew it was just lazy MS boy effort which was proven when we received the state results and he hadn’t missed a thing. Fortunately he is more invested in his school work this year so I am hopeful his results will be a better match to his oldest sister’s. </p>
<p>Both S and D1 are math/science kids though wheras D2 is a humanities girl at heart which is likely part of it too.</p>
<p>Us vary a great deal in what they will and will not allow to let a student advance. Our kids engineering school had a math placement test which you had to take to avoid remedial math, yes, even if you had a 5 in all your APs, as most of the engineering majors did. They placed everyone into the beginning courses in their engineering school, making most of the kids repeat what they had already covered well in HS. S said he didn’t learn ANYTHING new until 4th semester of sophomore year. IF you wanted to fight (& a few students did), you could argue to get placed in higher level courses. Our S did NOT want to fight & didn’t mind 3 semesters of review! Most of his peers similarily had 3 semesters of review.</p>
<p>In middle school, they wanted to place my D2 ahead in math, begin algebra 1 in 8th grade. She didn’t want to and I agreed. I would rather be more conservative and make sure my kids master the basics - even if a test score says they can advance. I have seen a couple kids in D1 class whose parents/grandma INSISTED be placed on advanced track in math really fall apart and struggle. </p>
<p>I think your daughter sounds fantastic and please don’t take this the wrong way, but I would play it safe. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>Seems like a waste of time, unless the beginning courses were taught at what would ordinarily be called the honors level (but if it seemed to be just review, probably not). One goes to university to learn something new; if the three semesters were not at an honors level or with substantial additional material not already covered before, it would be boring waste of time and tuition that could otherwise be used (now or later) on free electives (whether more advanced courses in the major or courses outside the major).</p>
<p>Something similar goes for a K-12 school system that teaches the same material to 6th and 7th grade students, even if the students mastered the material the first time around in 6th grade.</p>
<p>Alternate view for the OP. Our daughter was an excellent math student all the way through school (she actually got her bachelors degree in engineering last year). When she was in 7th grade, she was recommended for the accelerated math track. We asked why…and wondered if this was the best track for her. The math teacher could NOT give us a compelling reason why she was recommended (other than her good grades). We DECLINED the accelerated track. The accelerated track provided much DO…but not a lot of instruction if you didn’t KNOW what to do. DH (an engineer also) felt that the foundations for math were much too important. The honors track was just fine…provided ample practice and ability to review concepts. The accelerated track didn’t. </p>
<p>DD was just fine. She took algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2 and then precal/trig. She took calculus in college…a full year of it. She said it was an excellent decision because her calculus foundation was at HER college…not a high school course. </p>
<p>She never suffered a day from being in a regular math track as opposed to the accelerated track. I personally think these accelerated tracks have taken on a “life of their own”. </p>
<p>We were the ONLY parents in the history of the school to decline the accelerated track when it was offered.</p>
<p>I figured S was in college & I’d let him make the call as to whether or not he wanted to contest or review. He didn’t even hesitate & was content with reviewing. In some ways, I think it was good for him, since he was not physically present for 1/3 to 1/2 of HS, so he got to actually HEAR and SEE the material presented in class for the 1st time with some of this, even tho he had covered it largely via self-study in his AP courses (math & physics & comp sci). This also gave him more confidence to explore in other areas, like starting a rockclimbing club (a new sport) where he devoted a lot of his energy, as well as making new friends.</p>
<p>I have a friend whose S elected to contest & advance so he could take courses in finance with his engineering at the same U. He is content with his choice as well and plans to double-major in 4 years. He did have to struggle and his grades were not as high as they might have been if he had chosen an easier route, but it was what he wants so that he can choose between finance and chem engineering or some combo of the two.</p>
<p>I feel it’s very appropriate for our kids to have more & more say in what they want for their education as they get older and show maturity. Heck, the pediatrician & preschool director agreed that at 3 S was more than ready for kindergarten academically, but holding him back until he was 5.5 made a huge difference and allowed him to grow and thrive socially. To us and him, it was a good choice. From 2nd grade on, we have spoken often with our kids about their options and had their choices play a larger & larger role in the ultimate decisions. From JR year in HS, all the educational choices were theirs, with us being bankers. :)</p>
<p>Thank you all for your insightful comments. I am thinking carefully about everything you have written.</p>
<p>One unknown in this is that I’ve been told the math curriculum has been made more rigorous in the last few years. Thus, what I recall about the sequence from my older two might not be totally accurate now. I know for a fact the materials have changed, but I’m not sure if they’re more difficult. There seems to be more writing and explaining required, since the state achievement test has an open-ended format. The explanations are sometimes a little tough for my D, but I don’t see how time will lessen that for her. Furthermore, my older two needed assistance with the open-ended responses also and they were normal.</p>
<p>My D definitely wants to be in the higher level, but I think that’s because she knows that’s where the smarter kids are and she wants to be smart. I see that she is on an academic roll right now and I’d like to take advantage of it while it lasts. I think the challenge of learning new material will keep her moving forward.</p>
<p>One thing you might want to ask your school…how easy is it to move/change schedule if your daughter finds the higher level math class too difficult. At some schools it is very easy to switch…but at others it is quite difficult due to schedule issues.</p>
<p>Also, try to look at the “long term” in math. She needs a solid foundation if she decides to continue the math progression of courses. </p>
<p>It’s not an easy decision, for sure. I will say that the open ended questions where students have to tell why and how they solved a problem are AS important as getting the math right…just my opinion on that one. </p>
<p>It’s a package…your daughter will need to do all of it. Also, does your high school have any support services (not special education, but plain old fashioned tutoring) for students who may encounter some “bumps in the road”? That would be worth finding out.</p>
And since higher level math classes count in our district for HS GPA, we opted not to include his algebra grade from last year (you can opt out if you chose to give up the credit). I knew he had learned it well and actually had to sign him into geometry for this year which he is acing. His GC was worried he hadn’t learned algebra but I knew it was just lazy MS boy effort which was proven when we received the state results and he hadn’t missed a thing. Fortunately he is more invested in his school work this year so I am hopeful his results will be a better match to his oldest sister’s. </p>