Being competitive for residency

<p>Hi all, to avoid the confusion created in another thread, I am asking about what makes one competitive for residency.</p>

<p>Will going to big name top 20 med school give you an advantage? Will you get interviews for residency just cause your name is well known? </p>

<p>Also can someone in medschool please tell me what this AOA is? It seems to be very important for residency. Is your AOA status decided by your grades in college or you achievements in medschool? Is it like the honors college version for medschool?</p>

<p>It might be a little early to be worry about medschool but we all thought about getting into medschool when we chose our colleges.</p>

<p>I can answer only part of this. AOA is Alpha Omega Alpha, the academic honor society for medical schools. It is to med school what Phi Beta Kappa is to college.</p>

<p>At my wife’s medical school, the top students in the class after basic sciences (around the top 10%) were inducted at the beginning of their 3rd year. Near the end of third year, students in something like the top quarter of the class were invited to apply for the remaining slots in AOA. I don’t know whether other medical schools work differently.</p>

<p>Probably going to answer this in parts, because it’s a complex dynamic.</p>

<p>First, I have to preface this discussion by making it clear that residency is an entirely different beast than anything students have experienced thus far - at least when taken as a whole. It’s different from the program side and from personal situation the applicant finds themselves in.</p>

<p>In regards to the programs. There are competitive specialties (the ones that everyone talks about - radiology, derm, plastics, etc), there are competitive programs. There are competitive programs in competitive specialties, and competitive programs in non-competitive specialties. The competitive programs in non-competitive fields are likely more competitive than the non-competitive programs in competitive fields. Another extremely important point is that what matters to a particular program can be extremely dependent on the program director and the culture of that program. You may be the perfect candidate for an extremely prestigious program, and a total misfit at a program considered to be less competitive. Additionally, you have to remember about all the fellowships that come out of internal medicine and pediatrics…you can have a fairly easy residency match then have to battle through a grueling fellowship match.</p>

<p>Finally, you have to consider that in many instances, programs favor medical students from their school - so your competition may simply be extraordinarily high to go one particular spot because that year, a bunch of students at that school wanted to go into that field and stay at home.</p>

<p>Now, in terms of the applicants. The biggest thing here is that life has happened in the 4 years from the start of med school to graduation. People get married, have kids, get divorced, have family members get sick, have bought homes, feel their biological clocks are ticking, so on and so forth. Priorities are far more divergent than they are for kids coming out of HS looking at colleges and for pre-meds looking at medical schools. Career wise, for a great number of people this is going to be the last stop of their training, the end is in sight, and the push is now to become a good clinician rather than having the best resume. Yes, that subset of students who have that desire to go to the program that raises eyebrows still exists, but I think that crowd has died down - if only because those people are also pressing for more competitive specialties and so the inherent uncertainty of the Match tends to dampen their gusto.</p>

<p>What all this means is though, is that, really defining what makes you competitive for residency is not uniform, it’s hard to define and dependent on a number of factors that are specific to the particular situation you find yourself in. Going forward, I’ll try to give examples, as well as general thoughts that are broadly applicable.</p>

<p>to be continued…</p>

<p>BRM, many thanks. As the parent of a current medical student I am so appreciative when you and the other veterans of med school and now residency come back and write about medical training in general and your particular experiences. It helps me to understand a little better what is going on in my daughter’s life and how things will work in the future.</p>

<p>Thanks so much! I hope other peeps will tune in too. I feel like when it comes to life after medschool no one thinks about it because everyone’s so focused on just getting into medschool.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>It’s pretty much the same for people in med school until you get to 4th year, then all of a sudden it’s the most overwhelming thing imaginable. </p>

<p>Okay, for the time being while I’m not busy (stuck late in the NICU today), I’ll specifically answer the two questions posed above.</p>

<p>AOA - only about 16.5% of a med school class can be AOA, but some schools will further limit membership. It doesn’t have to be the top 16.5% but since grades are an easy measure, those people are at an advantage. However, after medical school, AOA chapters can induct Attendings, Fellows and Residents, based on whatever criteria they choose. I know several academic medical centers that induct all the Chief Residents each year - which is entirely arbitrary. While being Chief Resident is an honor, it also requires a particular personality type and career trajectory, so a great many “better” residents may pass it by. So the prestige of AOA tends to wear off a little, unless you were “Junior AOA” - inducted after the second year of medical school. </p>

<p>AOA status is nice as you are applying, but it’s like any other honor. Like I said in the first post, what matters to a particular program is widely variable. Some programs may fall over themselves for an applicant who is AOA, others may care a whole lot less. One of the more surprising results from the Program Director’s Survey done by the NRMP a couple years back was to see that for the most part, AOA status along with most other things was an important factor cited by about 60% of program directors across most specialties. The notable exception was ENT where it was cited by close to 90% of program directors as an important consideration. But for most everything else…whether pediatrics or neurosurgery, there were a sizable number of programs that didn’t really care.</p>

<p>Top 20 medical school. This is one of those classic things that for the people who have it, they claim it’s the most important thing ever, and everyone who doesn’t, has (probably with good reason) a far less positive spin on it. </p>

<p>I think no matter what, being a good student anywhere is far more important than where you’re doing it. I also think that “top 20” is such a vague representation of quality that even if it did matter, you’d have a ton of different reasons why. Further, every school has strong programs and weak programs. Is the person from a top 20 school that has an incredibly weak internal medicine program better than the person at a “bottom tier” school but whose IM residency program is widely known within the specialty? It’s really, really difficult to sort that out. </p>

<p>Along those lines, I think what’s more important (in terms of actually getting fasttracked to a residency program you really want) rather than the name on your diploma, is the people who are attendings in your desired field and who they know. eadad - a poster on this site - who is a surgical attending at an academic medical center has said this repeatedly. That “old boys network” and a good recommendation from a trusted colleague moves you farther than the name on your diploma. The tangent of this is that those who have come before you can make a major difference too. If a residency program at University XYZ has several residents come from Medical School ABC and they perform well, then XYZ may begin to look out for applicants from ABC knowing they’ve had great luck there in the past. Lastly, in a similar vein, is what is the notoriety of the faculty at a particular school in regards to your chosen field - even if the program director has no connection to those individuals. I’m seeing this first hand as I prepare to apply for fellowship - attendings affiliated with my residency program are well known in regards to Transport Medicine, Extracorpeal Membrane Oxygenation, and Pediatric CPR…all of which kind of fit under Peds Critical Care Medicine. So by extension, the PICU at my residency program is pretty well regarded, and because of that, we’ve sent fellows (and hopefully me next year) to some of the other highly regarded PICU programs around the country. This may sound like “well if I just go to a highly regarded place, I’m set” but I think there’s a distinct nuance that such a generalization would miss - and that would be the advantage gained from a SPECIFIC strength related to what you want to do. For example, if I wished to go into peds rheumatology, it should be pretty clear that a strong PICU is of little benefit to my fellowship application. Similarly, if you’re going into ENT, a really phenomenal neurosurgery program is not particularly helpful. </p>

<p>The kicker to all of this is, very few people know going into medical school that they’re absolutely going into a particular field. And even if they did, it’s difficult as a pre-med to know how good a particular specialty is compared to others across the country, it’s really, really, really hard to know about those “pipelines” that schools may have to certain programs, and it’s flat out impossible to know about the networking connections between attendings.</p>

<p>Add that into the uncertainity about any residency criteria (program size, location, etc) and it’s interplay with life situation that I mentioned in my prior post, and pre-meds are in absolutely no position to make a decision on which medical school to go to based on perceived future specialty. For example, that little “pipeline” may be the exact thing you need when you’re a 4th year medical student, but as a pre-med do you know that’s an area of the country you want to end up in?</p>

<p>In my next post, I’ll try to focus on things that a med student has control over and that are a bit more universally applicable…</p>

<p><<<pssst, brm.

From the CC version of Gone With The Wind </p>

<p>*eadad don’t know nothing 'bout birthing no surgeries :wink: </p>

<p>*</p>

<p>That would be another dad on the board. (I’m thinking Princessdad.) Now, if you need an office park developed for your new practice :wink: …he’s your man.>>>>>></p>

<p><a href=“I’m%20thinking%20Princessdad.”>quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah…that’s right…my mistake.</p>

<p>Okay, so far, I’ve pointed out that the Match is a very different animal than what most people have experienced so far, and that there are a huge number of considerations that may eventually play a role in how “competitive” a particular student is, but they can’t predict what will matter 4 years down the road.</p>

<p>So what is a newly accepted medical student to do?</p>

<p>Fortunately, it’s a lot of the same stuff they’ve done in the past. Get good grades, score well on standardized tests, perform activities that are meaningful to those who will be evaluating them going forward.</p>

<p>The other important thing is to keep an open mind about specialties and focus on what you actually ENJOY doing rather than what other people lay out as a ‘the best field’. I think that quite often, terms like “ROAD” and “lifestyle” cause students to make choices that ultimately leave them less than satisfied. There are various surveys out there that routinely rank pediatricians and pediatric subspecialists as having the highest job satisfaction among practicing physicians and other surveys that find surgery residents having the highest career satisfaction among residents. These findings fly in the face of concerns about income and “lifestyle” that so many students claim as important. Why are these groups of people satisfied? I think it largely has to do with the fact that they’ve chosen to do things they actually like to do despite knowing they won’t get paid as much or that they’ll work significantly longer hours than others. Doing what you enjoy goes for fellowships too. I’ve had a number of people try to push me towards Peds ER because the hours are better, but even though I like being in the ER, I know that it simply can’t match the enjoyment I get from being in the PICU. I see the same thing in my friends who are Medicine residents as they decide between fields like Cardiology and GI or my friends who are anesthesia residents who know they will take a pay cut by doing Peds anesthesia instead of general anesthesia.</p>

<p>So the goal going in as a student is to do the best you can so that when you do decide, you’ll be able to get into a quality program.</p>

<p>[ul]
[li] Grades</p>[/li]
<p>Yes, they still matter, however, there’s a lot that’s relative in the process. Grades and comments in the third year clerkships generally matter more than pre-clinical grades. That’s across all specialties. People want to know that others think you’ll make a good doctor, NOT just that you know a whole bunch. That said, preclincal grades matter in terms of class rank, AOA status and are positively correlated with USMLE Scores, so their value is not entirely erased. However, if you bomb a particular class, even if you fail it and have to remediate it, it’s not the end of the world and you don’t have to immediately cast your lot to doing family medicine in some godforsaken place. Be a complete tool during third year clerkships though, ring up a few citations for lacking professional behavior, or prove yourself to be dangerous when in charge of patients and you might not match in your desired specialty, forcing you to scramble.</p>

<p>[li] Test Scores</p>[/li]
<p>Specifically USMLE Step 1. The time spent taking this exam is easily the most heavily weighted 9 hours in all of medical school. Simply put, it opens doors. You have to walk through said doors, but bomb the USMLE, and you’ll have an extremely difficult time getting into the highly competitive specialties, or getting interviews at the highly competitive programs in less competitive specialties. However, despite all the talk about getting 240’s on the USMLE, it’s important to remember that the mean scores is about a 218. The mode and median too. There are plenty of absolutely great programs in a variety of fields where a 220 will be more than adequate and won’t leave you helpless to find a spot. Further, even in several fields that are considered more competitive - in particular Anesthesia and ER - there are a lot of spots that need to be filled. I personally know quite a few anesthesia residents who have what many would consider less than stellar Step 1 scores. Are they at the world’s best anesthesia program? No, but they’re going to be anesthesiologists in 2-4 years. Again, that’s one of the most important differences in this whole process. Fewer people are looking for that place they can name drop, they want a place where they enjoy going to work for 3-7 years while learning the skills they need to practice on their own. And for some, the priority is simply to come out on the other end of residency getting to practice the type of medicine they love…you can do anything for 3-5 years if you know at the end, you’ll have achieved your true goal.</p>

<p>Step 2 is less of a worry. For Clinical Knowledge (the multiple choice portion), if you did poorly on Step 1, there’s some thought that a dramatic score improvement can demonstrate an upward trend sort of phenomena but I haven’t really heard that much luck with the idea. On the flip side, there are a number of people who did fantastic on Step 1, applying for difficult specialties who will put off Step 2 until a point when scores won’t be returned until after rank lists are due, just so it’s not an issue that will trip them up. There do seem to be some legs to this rumor. As for Clinical Skills (the patient encounter portion)…this is the portion that Alex on Grey’s Anatomy failed in the very first season…it doesn’t really matter. If you’re a US Grad, you practically have to try to fail on purpose in order not to pass the exam.</p>

<p>[li]Research</p>[/li]
<p>Remember how I said that programs are dependent on who is running them? This is a prime example. There are programs who simply expect some significant research experience. Some programs simply don’t care. All depends on what the program’s goals are - trying to train academic physicians? Better be ready for some sort of research project as a resident. Program claims they’re dedicated to training the most well rounded clinicians possible - might not be as strong towards the research end.</p>

<p>There are fields however, where research prior to residency is a de facto requirement. Radiation Oncology comes to mind. But other than that, in most other specialties, this will be a program to program thing.</p>

<p>[li] Other activities</p>[/li]
<p>Again specialty specific. In pediatrics, I think there probably is an impetus to show at least something that proves your involvement with children. Doesn’t have to be much, but something. Other fields…I think it’s a little bit harder to necessarily find activities that aren’t simply medical school extracurriculars that fit the bill - at least in terms of things that are specific to a particular specialty. Certainly working with a free clinic is broadly applicable and you may be able to spin it into something more. Medical mission trips are the same thing - they don’t push you towards a single specialty for the most part.</p>

<p>[li]Interview</p>[/li]
<p>After Step 1, according to the Program Directors Survey - on the NRMP website - the interview day the next most heavily weighted 8 hours in all of medical school. This isn’t like the med school interview. This is a JOB interview. People are judging you on how you’ll fit in to their program. </p>

<p>I will admit though, every specialty is different, and hopefully Shades will chime in on what surgery interviews are like. I can only tell you that Peds interviews are extremely laid back and while I didn’t interview at places like Boston Children’s, Texas Children’s or CHOP, the upper tier places I visited still spent a significant time selling me on their program, rather than me selling them as to why they should pick me. In the really competitive fields, there are more applicants than spots, and the programs have the advantage, can be much more selective. Other fields may view the interview process as something where the applicants really have to state their case. Regardless of the field you’re going into, you need to make a positive impression on everyone you meet. You really don’t know who will make comments or send information to the people in charge.</p>

<p>For example, many peds programs take the applicants to dinner the night before the interview. It’s a chance to ask the residents what the program is like, but it’s also a chance for the residents to evaluate the applicants. I routinely send emails to my program office staff about applicants I’ve met, and I’ve definitely told them I didn’t want a person to come to our program.[/ul]</p>

<p>Okay, lots of information.
I hope it’s explained a lot about the process, and some important considerations to keep in mind.</p>

<p>Competitiveness (=desirability) of a specialty can vary over time as a function of market dynamics. </p>

<p>When I matched to anesthesia programs in 1991, anesthesia residency was very desirable. When I completed my residency in 1995, a perceived glut of anesthesiologists torpedoed anesthesia hiring and initial compensation; the 1996 anesthesia match left many spots unfilled by AMG’s, so anesthesia programs around the country embraced FMG’s for two years.</p>

<p>In 2000, AMG’s completing anesthesia residencies found many jobs and generous compensation.
[Physician</a> Training And The Marketplace ? Health Aff](<a href=“http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/21/6/268.full]Physician”>http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/21/6/268.full) </p>

<p>Since 2000 anesthesia has remained competitive, but CRNA replacement of anesthesiologists is starting to erode MD positions.
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/opinion/07tue3.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/opinion/07tue3.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;