Berkeley and its infamous GPA deflation and Jobs

<p>I am slowly realizing that I could have gone to a less competitive school and get an amazing GPA. I looked at the midterms that my friend's colleges give for the equivalent of the classes Berkeley and they are extremely easy compared to the tests Berkeley gives. </p>

<p>Will the name of Berkeley supersede GPA? Who will get the better job: someone who has an amazing GPA, but went to a school with less prestige or someone who has a lower GPA because that person went somewhere competitive?</p>

<p>I'm just a little worried because of the economic situation ):</p>

<p>I can totally say “same here.” I have friends who go to college out of state but we’re taking equivalent classes. I swear that my friends are doing work that we did in high school; same essay prompts, same math assignments, same teaching/testing format. It’s sad to me. For them, college is just a boring ol’ continuation of high school. At Berkeley, though, they really do make you think in ways that you weren’t expected to think in high school. I really value that.</p>

<p>So, my answer is; it depends on what college (if the college is less prestigious than Berkeley, but close enough, then it’ll be a different story), but I hope employers will realize the difference in difficulty (and therefore, prestige) when they hire. Of course, if you have a completely failing GPA, then probably not. But just a few points of difference will likely be attributed to it being Berkeley. I have no factual insight, though, but would also like to hear from people who do.</p>

<p>haha…OP…you have NO idea how many times I have asked myself this…</p>

<p>this place has been OK grade-wise once i became an upperclassmen, but my first two years I seriously hated life every waking minute of every day.</p>

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<p>this.</p>

<p>3 years for me - my major has weeder classes until junior year. How sad is that</p>

<p>Whether the name supersedes GPA will depend on what you’re trying to do out of college. Job in finance? Name. Going to med school? GPA.</p>

<p>[National</a> Trends in Grade Inflation, American Colleges and Universities](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com/]National”>http://www.gradeinflation.com/) says that Berkeley grades are more inflated than other UCs, CSUs, and community colleges. At the bottom are listings for each school.</p>

<p>Berkeley: 3.27 in 2006
UCLA: 3.22 in 2008
UCSB: 3.02 in 2006
UCSD: 3.02 in 2008
UC Irvine: 2.98 in 2008
CSU San Bernardino: 2.92 in 2007
CSU Sacramento: 2.86 in 2006
CSU Fresno: 2.85 in 2007
San Jose State: 2.85 in 2008
California Community Colleges: 2.70 in 2006
CSU Fullerton: 2.68 in 2005</p>

<p>Other schools:</p>

<p>Stanford: 3.55 in 2005
Michigan: 3.27 in 2008
USC: 3.25 in 2009
Virginia: 3.21 in 2006
Wisconsin: 3.20 in 2007
North Carolina: 3.16 in 2006
Texas: 3.12 in 2007</p>

<p>If you really want to play the GPA game for law or medical school, some candidates with relatively high GPAs but low admissions selectivity would be:</p>

<p>Wisconsin Green Bay: 3.27 in 2007
Wisconsin LaCrosse: 3.21 in 2005
Kansas: 3.16 in 2004
Western Washington: 3.14 in 2004
Eastern Oregon: 3.13 in 2000
Wester Michigan: 3.11 in 2007
Arizona: 3.10 in 1998
Portland State: 3.10 in 2007
Oregon: 3.10 in 2007</p>

<p>I’ve been seeing a lot of these posts about low GPA Berkeley vs. high GPA lower-tier school. I just want to give a bit more depth into this argument by asking: why does it only have to be a comparison of those two? Why won’t employers just reject both of the candidates and hire the Berkeley grad WITH a high GPA?</p>

<p>I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad, but don’t just be complacent with a low GPA and ride on the “brand name” (debatable) of Berkeley. You should try to get the highest GPA regardless of the situation.</p>

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<p>…is long gone.</p>

<p>P.S. do some research. You’ll find that your major (MCB) has a higher than average gpa. Heck, MCB is even higher that Philosophy.</p>

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<p>I am actually far less incensed by the inter-school grade deflation compared to the *intra-*school deflation. I continue to ask the question: exactly why are certain majors (i.e. engineering, computer science, physics) graded so much harder than other majors in the same university? This seems to be a nationwide phenomenon: I defy anybody to name a university where engineering/CS/physics is widely considered to be the ‘joke’ major largely populated by students who are fishing for high GPA’s.</p>

<p>Not sure if graded harder would be the best phrase as I’d expect science/engin majors to have tests that are a lot more black/white as opposed to humanities that are a bit more subjective? (For the former, questions on midterms are either right or wrong. The latter…anything goes in an essay as long as the person has a valid argument.) </p>

<p>Now if you’re asking why the sci/engin professors feel the need to make the tests so convoluted and tricky such that the class ends up with a 40-60% average…not sure. I understand adding twists here and there, but to blindside and purposely “weed” students out…boggles my mind.</p>

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<p>According to [University</a> of California: StatFinder](<a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu%5DUniversity”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu) , for the fall 2003 entering freshmen at Berkeley, the average year 1 GPA was 3.21 over all majors.</p>

<p>Based on most recent (typically graduation) major, especially high majors in year 1 were: business (3.62), computer science (3.38), history (3.34), philosophy (3.34), psychology (3.33), interdisciplinary studies (3.33). Especially low majors in year 1 were: social welfare (2.89), legal studies (2.92), natural resources (2.96), math and statistics (2.96), ethnic studies and area studies (3.02), architecture (3.06). Engineering (3.15) and physical sciences (3.22) were close to average.</p>

<p>Based on intended major, especially high majors in year 1 were: foreign languages and linguistics (3.51), history (3.43), social welfare (3.40), social sciences (3.32), visual and performing arts (3.31). Especially low majors in year 1 were: ethnic and area studies (3.04), physical sciences (3.04). Engineering (3.15) and computer science (3.19) were close to average.</p>

<p>As far as why history may seem to be graded so gently – look at the course catalog and see that no undergraduate history course is needed as a prerequisite for any other undergraduate history course. So there is not a lot of pressure to put a floor on the level of rigor in undergraduate history courses.</p>

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<p>Let me put it to you this way. According to the EECS department’s official guidelines, the typical grade assigned for lower-division courses should be around 2.7 (hence a B-), with basic prereq CS courses having a typical grade of 2.5 (slightly above a C+). </p>

<p>[Grading</a> Guidelines for Undergraduate Courses | EECS at UC Berkeley](<a href=“http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml]Grading”>http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml)</p>

<p>How many humanities or social science department can say the same with regards to the grading of their lower-division courses? Is there even one such department? </p>

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<p>Yet subjectivity is a concept entirely separable from the grading. Just because a topic is subjective doesn’t mean that you have to assign high grades to everybody. You could just as easily assign low grades to everybody. </p>

<p>Consider an example. The Berkeley humanities PhD programs are - just like any world-class humanities PhD programs - notoriously difficult to finish, despite the fact that PhD humanities work is surely even more subjective than is undergrad work. You just can’t just write any old essay as a dissertation and then simply expect that Berkeley will grant you a PhD in English, no matter how valid you may think the arguments to be. Some of those students spend over a decade crafting a dissertation and still cannot produce something to the satisfaction of their dissertation committee. That’s why such a large percentage of PhD humanities students never earn the PhD at all. The committee’s attitude is not: “Well, since humanities research is highly subjective in nature such that we can’t really tell whether you’re right or wrong, we’re just going to grant you a PhD degree by default”, but rather entirely the opposite: the default is not to grant you the degree. </p>

<p>Now obviously I’m not expecting undergrads to perform at the level of PhD students. But surely it is possible to take some of the skepticism that humanities faculty apply to the graduate students and direct it towards the undergrads as well. If a humanities graduate program can be made to be grueling, why not an undergrad program as well? </p>

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<p>Then let me tell you a story. I know a guy who knew the exam material well and after some silly mistakes, scored in the mid-80’s % on a particular exam… and was devastated to the point of depression. Why? Because the mean of the exam was a 95%, and the course was a weeder with a harsh curve which basically meant that, according to the curve, he basically failed the exam. He knew the vast majority of the material on the exam. But that didn’t matter, because grading was determined not by how much you know, but rather your scorerelative to everybody else’s score. </p>

<p>That’s why, given that weeding must take place anyway, I actually support having a 40-60% average. After all, the alternative is to have straightforward exams where the averages would centralize around 80-90%, such that a few silly mistakes would push you towards a failing grade according to the weeding curve. If you must flunk and weed people out, better to flunk out those who don’t actually understand the material rather than those who just make silly mistakes. </p>

<p>But the far better question is, why do you even need to weed people out in the first place? </p>

<p>More specifically, why do you have to weed out certain majors such as engineering, but not others? If weeding out was truly so valuable as a quality-control mechanism, then why not weed out every major? Why doesn’t, say, American Studies have a gateway weeder course?</p>

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<p>Then inject rigor into all the undergrad history courses. You don’t need a gateway prereq course to implement rigor. You can disperse that rigor throughout your whole major.</p>

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<p>Frankly, I have no idea how to interpret this data, for it says nothing about the selection effects of students switching majors. Obviously graduating (Haas) business majors should have high GPA’s in their first year: if they didn’t, they wouldn’t have been admitted to the business major in the first place. We need to somehow account for all those students who wanted to declare the business major but were not allowed.</p>

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<p>You like to quote that policy, but it obviously has not been followed in years, according to both [University</a> of California: StatFinder](<a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu%5DUniversity”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu) and Hilfinger’s 1999 survey of EE and CS grades here: [Grade</a> Distributions for EECS and LSCS Students](<a href=“http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~hilfingr/report/index.html]Grade”>Grade Distributions for EECS and LSCS Students) .</p>

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<p>You do not need prerequisite chains to implement rigor, but the lack of such prerequisite chains reduces the incentive to implement rigor, since instructors whose courses are insufficiently rigorous are less likely to catch flak over lack of rigor if no subsequent course depends on the material learned.</p>

<p>You should take your complaint to the history and other departments that you believe are not sufficiently rigorous.</p>

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<p>Any time you have courses that build on prerequisites, the prerequisites become “weeders” by default. Is it that hard to understand?</p>

<p>Lol did we divert from the main point of the thread stated by the OP? Did anyone ever answer that question? Will a kid with a 3.3 from UCB EECS get a job over a kid with a 4.0 in ECE or CS from UCLA? Somehow I think not, but it would be nice if that was the case.</p>

<p>I think for engineering having over a 3.5 with internships is the goal to aim for since that is usually an implicit minimum for decent M.Eng and M.S. programs which many engineers do these days and 3.5 according to my dad at Hewlett Packard is the general minimum his department looks for when employing EE or CS Bachelor’s graduates, in addition to having done at least one internship (although this last part is sometimes optional if the student was spectacular in the interview and had a super kick-ass GPA (assuming close to 4.0))</p>

<p>PS: How does everyone do the quote thing?</p>

<p>You do the quote bbcode:</p>

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<p>[*quote]hello

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<p>Remove the * from [*quote].</p>

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<p>Why don’t you just ask if, ‘a kid with a 3.3 from UCB EECS get a job over a kid with a 4.0 from UCB EECS?’</p>

<p>I think Berkeley engineering offers unique opportunities because we are the preferred school that tech companies come to, over stanford (our main competitor). So there’s just so much more opportunities in terms of internships regardless of GPA. I think a 3.3 from UCB EECS is worth more (not degree-wise in the long run, but in terms of job opportunities now).</p>

<p>Also, I think that capped majors, such as business, tend to have higher GPAs because it’s impossible for people to get into the major if they didn’t have a high GPA already. So there is bias in the statistics. For MCB, many of the people who don’t do well tend to fall towards PH or IB instead, which skews the GPA up as well.</p>

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<p>Agreed; one can’t transfer into Haas with a 3.0.</p>

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<p>That is illogical. There is no reason for MCB to have higher than average gpa, unless they give out more A’s per class. (Which they definitely do.) But if the mean grade in MCB is a A-/B+, why would folks leave for a major with the mean is a B? Sure, PH is a lot less work, but it is less for all, including philosophy majors. Conversely, if the other bio science programs are “easier” than MCB, the premeds would have figured that out long ago and would flock to such majors to boost their gpa.</p>