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<p>Stop now. You’re embarrassing yourself.</p>
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<p>No; I wasn’t embarrassing myself. You’re just in denial. </p>
<p>Prove it to me that each and every Berkeley and Midd grad would apply to Yale Law, JHU Med and Harvard Law. If you can prove that to me, then I will concede.</p>
<p>And if Arcadia couldn’t prove it to you that every UCB and MIDD grad would apply to Yale etc, does that justify your statement “don’t ever say that we need to adjust that for size of the schools because that is wrong” ?</p>
<p>I don’t think so. In fact, the fact that we cannot prove it shows that the stats you posted to claim that UCB is better are barely relevant if not useless in this current case.</p>
<p>Correct if I am wrong.</p>
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<p>Yes; because the absolute numbers favor Berkeley. That’s what matters now. </p>
<p>Let me give you an example. Again, this is just a fictitious scenario. But I’d like you to think about this example. </p>
<p>Say you went to Brazil and met 10,000 Americans and 2 Pakistanis there. Then when you came back to the US, your dad asked you which citizens between the two would make it easier to go to Brazil. The situation is, you do not know 1. how many Americans want to go to Brazil 2. how many Americans applied for a Brazilian visa (assume that they’re required to show that) 3. how many Americans who have applied actually got a visa … all that versus the data of the Pakistanis. How then would you know which citizens would have an easier access to Brazil? It’s hard to guess, right? But you know of ff: 1. Americans are not a huge fun of Brazil and would prefer Mexico, Chile, etc over it, and 2. Almost all Pakistanis would see Brazil as a perfect gate away and would break an arm just to go to Brazil.</p>
<p>farkula, lazy students wouldn’t survive at a top school like Berkeley and Cambridge. Put that in your mind. </p>
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<p>Then credit Berkeley for being larger than Midd. If it was as small as Midd, it probably wouldn’t be as prestigious as it is now. (You see, I can make this claim too.)</p>
<p>Now, I think there’s something that you fail to analyze here. Whilst Berkeley is huge, it has way more course offerings than Midd has. Midd has only about 40 undergrad majors. Berkeley has about a hundred undergrad programs and over 2 thousand undergrad courses offered in every semester. It offers undergrad programs unknown to Midd students. For example, Berkeley has BA in South & Southeast Asian Studies or BS in Genetics & Plant Biology. Those programs aren’t popular in other schools. Heck, they don’t even exist in other schools, or unheard of at most schools. But employers think highly of those programs despite that they’re relatively unknown. For example, McKinsey, a notorious management consulting firm when it comes to hiring took in grads from those programs. And, McKinsey hasn’t hired or invited someone from Midd (for any program) for a long time. A top bank like Goldman Sachs does not take an effort to go to Midd to hire Midd graduates. But Goldman Sachs visits Berkeley regularly and absorbs many Berkeley grads annually. If Midd is that prestigious, why don’t those top firms go there? </p>
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<p>Only about 30% of Berkeley grads pursue grad school in the US or abroad. Many of those aren’t in the professional schools but in specialized postgrad programs such as engineering, CS, physical sciences, social sciences, the humanities, languages and media/broadcast comm or journalism. Not every Berkeley grad applies to Yale Law or Harvard Law. Not every Berkeley grad wants to be a lawyer. Many Berkeley grads win Fulbright Scholarship to pursue grad studies at top foreign schools. Like I said, I met a lot of Berkeley grads doing grad studies at Cambridge. For example, my wife, who’s an economics grad at Cal went to Cambridge-Judge. She was involved in Berkeley alumni association at Oxbridge which has over 50 members at that time. </p>
<p>As for the schools’ admission rates, Berkeley has an admit rate of 18%, and 21% if you include students accepted for the Spring. (The Spring admit is Berkeley’s answer to Midd’s wait-listed students.) Admit rate isn’t very telling. The quality of the admitted students are better indications of the school’s selectivity level. And, I’d say that on average, both Berkeley and Midd have about the same student competitiveness in terms of general knowledge, and Berkeley students have a superior competitiveness in terms of quantitative skills. But that is, of course, expected of UC Berkeley, which is a consistent top 3 school for engineering and computer science in the whole US. </p>
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Why would you have gone to UCL or Cass instead of Berkeley when Berkeley has better employment prospects than those UK unis? </p>
<p>And, if you say you value college experience, why would you go for Midd when you have an offer from Oxbridge?</p>
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<p>You do love to assume (note the word ASSUMPTION) a lot don’t you? For instance, you took my statement that says sth like “I’m lazy to read long posts that somewhat resonate repeated facts” completely out of context and extrapolate a gazillion times and then imply that I am as a whole a lazy person… But thanks for the advice. :D</p>
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<p>First of all, while I agree (have always been) to the point that UCB has more kids in top grad school may imply sth, I still (even after your example) couldn’t see the direct correlation between number of student per college and the college’s superiority itself. For all that matter, it could mean UCB is a better school, it could mean MIDD kids doesn’t care about going to those grad school, OR (and note the OR) it could easily mean that UCB is simply bigger… To put it short, the fact that there is no direct correlation clearly shows that the stats being used isn’t effective and thus irrelevant to a great extend. I mean, don’t ASSUME just because more UCB kids goes to top grad school UCB is better, there could be a million other reason. And this reminds me of the “illusion of validity” thing.</p>
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<p>And how does the fact that UCB has more courses makes it better? I can easily claim UCB’s student to faculty ratio is almost double that of MIDD therefore UCB kids gets much less attention. I can also say that MIDD boast a greater alumni network and is rank 4th most loved school by its alumni, UCB i don’t even see it on the list. I can go on listing like endowment per student at MIDD is way way way higher than UCB, diversity is much better (e.g. UCB has 70% of it’s student from california alone for last year admission!) etc. The thing is, the college experience isn’t defined by only ONE thing but a million things put together (thats what I believe) so please, as arcadia puts it, don’t embarrass yourself… Oh and about UCB kid having a better future, perhaps you shud look at forbes ranking that considers career prospects, grad earning etc as a very important part of the methodology. There, UCB is 70th while MIDD is 40th.</p>
<p>[America’s</a> Best Colleges List - Forbes](<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/list/]America’s”>Forbes America's Top Colleges List 2023)</p>
<p>So as I repeat, why should we be comparing incomparable schools?</p>
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<p>Any proof? Or is this another assumption…</p>
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<p>I am not saying I would have gone to UCL over UCB. I am saying that I’m accepted to UCL but would never ever ever pick it over MIDD even if there is a better employment prospect. Remember, UCL is rank 5th in economics, 2 ranks below Cambridge and 8th in general. </p>
<p>[Economics</a> - Top UK University Subject Tables and Rankings 2013 - Complete University Guide](<a href=“http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?s=Economics]Economics”>http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?s=Economics)</p>
<p>As for why I would go for MIDD over Oxbridge (which i didn’t bother applying), umm… I don’t know… Perhaps it has something to do with… Umm… MIDD has financial aid for international student that Oxbridge couldn’t give??? That I don’t have to sit for a freaking thinking skills test and an interview that I must waste money flying to UK to attend??? Oh, and maybe, just maybe… the fact that I DON’T have to be all crazy-passionate and declare my ultimate life-changing course till 2nd year, and allowing time to think and learn more about myself? And lets not forget that I can only apply to Oxford OR Cambridge which I find utterly absurd…</p>
<p>Anyway, this is going too far I think. PEACE!</p>
<p>Btw, I have friends who applied Oxbridge, who goes to Imperial college etc. I go to a UK-based school so I have a lot of respect for UK unis.</p>
<p>RML, is it true that male students at UCB have bigger p e n i s es, on average, than male students at Midd? (Wow, CC really won’t let me say “*****”)</p>
<p>This RML guy is delusional. </p>
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<p>I agree that some graduate degrees from Berkeley are quite prestigious. We’re talking about undergrad programs here. I don’t think Berkeley is any more prestigious than Middlebury among people whose job it is to know about the quality of undergraduate programs (e.g., recruiters, grad school admissions officers, etc.). You have yet to prove otherwise. One thing is for sure–Berkeley is one of the top 50 state schools in the country! Berkeley students must feel so special that they were selected to be one of 26,000 undergrads.</p>
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<p>What? I know plenty of Midd grads at McKinsey. Back up your claim–otherwise you sound foolish.</p>
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<p>Again, where are you getting your information. Goldman Sachs regularly hires Midd grads.</p>
<p>Read this article–you might learn something: [Liberal</a> arts tweaked for careers - USATODAY.com](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-08-31-liberalarts_N.htm]Liberal”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-08-31-liberalarts_N.htm)</p>
<p>Scroll down for a list or organizations that actively recruited Middlebury students in 2012: [Employers</a> | Middlebury](<a href=“Center for Careers and Internships | Middlebury”>Center for Careers and Internships | Middlebury)</p>
<p>Note Goldman and McKinsey on the list.</p>
<p>arcadia, those companies may go there, just as they go to other small, less-prestigious schools. But it doesn’t mean they’ll hire from those small, less-prestigious schools all the time, or just as much as they do Berkeley, Stanford, Ivies, MIT grads. Stop fooling yourself. Midd is a good school and I’m not going to deny that. But it isn’t a top target school for top hiring in banking and finance. My friends at McKinsey were all telling me that it didn’t get someone from Midd in many years now. The ones who have gone to Midd at McKiney are those who also have MBAs from top grad business schools like HSW, Berkeley-Haas, Dartmouth-Tuck, Chicago, Columbia and the like.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, Berkeley would give you a much better and faster R.O.I. than Midd would. We have verifiable and quantifiable data that would support this claim. </p>
<p>In general, you’re going to make more coming out of Berkeley than you would out of Midd. That’s a fact. And, like I said, education is an investment. It’s simply not about college experience alone. It would perhaps be a combination of many factors for some students. But I would bet that the biggest factor of those many factors would be the “employability” afterwards. And, in this case, Berkeley would pawn Midd big time. That is not to say Midd isn’t a good school. It is. It’s just that, it is not as prestigious as Berkeley is. And, I don’t think it will be in many years.</p>
<p>farkula, you’re perhaps right. In general, Midd students would get more attention from their profs. But that wouldn’t translate to or mean that you’ll become a better student or graduate in the end. Oxford students, for example, wouldn’t always become better graduates to Harvard or Stanford graduates despite the enormous amount of time the tutors, dons, provosts, profs, deans would spend to Oxford students at Oxford, right? The same is true for Berkeley and Midd’s case. ;)</p>
<p>Now, to the guy and his/her supporter who claimed that Midd grad could just enroll in Berkeley for grad school, you are day-dreaming… Wake up!!! </p>
<p>Berkeley grad programs are as hell selective as the best schools anywhere on the face of the earth. The school turned down thousands of HYPSM applicants each year. And, obviously, Midd is nowhere near HYPSM. You need to be one of the best at Midd to get into any grad program at Berkeley grad school. Midd does not have easy access to Berkeley grad school. It does not.</p>
<p>This is one of the most ridiculous threads I have ever read on CC. Middlebury and UC-Berkeley are at complete opposite poles, in terms of size, location and student culture. Everything else is irrelevant. RML, I admire your loyalty, but the fact is you are playing a weak hand. No public university can compete with a top LAC in one important metric: graduating its freshmen within four years. </p>
<p>The addtional time someone has to spend getting their B.A. would obviously skew all your supposed ROI data unless you can show that it controls for opportunity costs and actual costs for all schools. I don’t think that data exists. However, we do know that about a third of every Berkeley entering class requires extra time to graduate - roughly equal to the entire Middlebury campus! </p>
<p>[10</a> Best Public Colleges With the Highest Graduation Rates - Kiplinger](<a href=“http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/public-colleges-with-highest-graduation-rate-2012/8.html]10”>Lists | Kiplinger)</p>
<p>OK, I concede (mainly cuz your certainly extremely persistent and I haven’t even attend MIDD.) LOL. I just want to say that money doesn’t mean happiness and the ROI investment thing isn’t a good measure at all of colleges. As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, but the schools with the best ROI are the technology-science-oriented schools and in an era where that industry is booming, it’s only natural that they are earning way way way higher on average. But does it mean that everyone should study something in that field? Does it mean that those who are passionate about the arts in general will regret their choice? The fact that Midd isn’t even an Enginneering school (if you want to be one, i heard MIdd students transfer to Dartmouth or Columbia) and still do pretty well shows how good MIDD is. That is the whole point… MIDD kids I’m sure (and hope) LOVE what they do, and as long as they are living decently, I am sure they are all quite sastified not clawing each other and destroying the world to become millionairess. They love what they do and they do what they love, that is what I learned when I applied to MIT, and that’s why I think I am going to love MIDD too … As far as I know, MIDD is better than Berkeley in the field that I want to go in… I couldn’t care less about anything else!</p>
<p>farkula, Dartmouth, Yale and Harvard aren’t really great for engineering, yet they all perform significantly better than Midd. Berkeley has only about 18% engineering students/grads, yet it did much better than Midd. So, what are you talking about?</p>
<p>johnwesley, if you’ll take the time to read back, then you’ll know that I did not start the comparison until some Midd fanboys were bashing Berkeley. The only comment I made about the 2 schools was about the prestige, in which, Berkeley, as a powerhouse in research, has an inert advantage, because, obviously, research plays a big role in academic prestige. As a small, LAC, Midd cannot compete a school like Berkeley which has an annual operational budget perhaps 50x larger than that of Midd’s. I was simply talking about school prestige. It could have ended up there. But I guess some Midd fanboys don’t want to hear about it. lol</p>
<p>Im not sure where u get your stats but here’s what I am talking about :</p>
<p>Most popular majors (as of Fall 2009): Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, 1500 students; Political Science, 916 students; Molecular and Cell Biology, 1020 students; Environmental Science, Policy and Management, 886 students; Economics 828 students.
Courses offered: More than 7,000 courses in some 350 degree programs; the campus produces more Ph.D.s annually than any other U.S. university.
[Facts</a> at a glance - UC Berkeley](<a href=“http://berkeley.edu/about/fact.shtml]Facts”>By the numbers - University of California, Berkeley)</p>
<p>Which clearly shows that 3 out of 5 of the most popular majors are science-tech base. From another data, <a href=“http://opa.berkeley.edu/statistics/UndergraduateProfile.pdf[/url]”>http://opa.berkeley.edu/statistics/UndergraduateProfile.pdf</a>, alsmost 25% is in engineering/life science…</p>
<p>RML, I have to engage your propaganda (a great risk, because it only seems to spur you). Berkeley has some great grad programs. You make rash statements with no support. Some of them are outright lies (just because you say something does not make it true). First you make the claim that Midd is not as prestigious as Berkeley. I’ll grant that it may be better know, but awareness does not equal prestige. If it did, then Florida, Ohio State, Notre Dame and USC would be the most prestigious schools in the country. I think we can agree that’s not true. I appreciate you’re love of your school, but don’t let it skew your understanding of the facts. As we readily admit, we’re all fanboys over here. There are lots of us. Middlebury has one of the highest Alumni giving rates in the country. But we don’t let our opinions change our version of the facts. Prestige is difficult to quantify. In our opinion, and certainly on the East Coast Berkeley is simply not as prestigious as Midd. Fine, we’ll agree to disagree. </p>
<p>Second, you invent this unquantifiable claim that Berkeley graduates are so much more employable than Midd graduates that Berkeley would “pawn Midd Big time”. Another delusional statement. I’m sure there is some study of employment rates 6 months after graduation (or the enrollment in grad school equivalent). With the unemployment rate in California being over 11% and the fact that there are more than 10 times as many students enrolled at Berkeley as there are at Middlebury, I suspect the opposite of your claim is actually true. And lets compare apples to apples here, I’m looking only at undergrad graduates. Also, you’re claim that we can’t compare rates of Midd students at top grad schools to rates of Berkeley students - only whole numbers is also so ridiculous I feel silly having to explain it to you. By that standard, people in China are taller than people in any other country because their combined height is greater than any other country (boy I hope that helps clarify your absurdity). </p>
<p>Third, you claim, “You need to be one of the best at Midd to get into any grad program at Berkeley grad school. Midd does not have easy access to Berkeley grad school. It does not.” I’m willing to concede that this may be a semantics argument. No one is claiming that Midd grads can simply walk into Berkeley as grad students. However, it’s not NEARLY as difficult as you claim. Our anecdotal evidence supports that. As we’ve said, Berkeley does have some great grad schools, but it’s not the impenetrable Mecca you believe it is. In my class, students were accepted to Berkeley for MBA’s and turned them down for Wharton and Kellogg - and Haas is a GREAT MBA program. That also ignores the high number of students who chose to attend Tuck, who never even applied to Haas (Please don’t argue that Haas is far superior to Tuck, let’s agree they’re on the same level). Plus I know of another student who went to Darden (did not apply to Haas). Another who went to Stanford (I don’t know whether he applied to Haas). Surely, not all of those students were at the top of their class. That’s just business. For Law school, we had students attending Harvard, UVA, G’Town, and Cornell. I don’t know whether those students applied to Boalt. I do know the student who attended G’Town was wait listed at Harvard and graduated cum laude - not magna, not summa, so I know he wasn’t at the top of his class. He was, however, at the top of his Law School class graduating in the top 10. Finally, let’s look at some less traditional graduate experiences. Architecture. We had one student going to Harvard and another going to Columbia. I’m not sure whether the Harvard student applied to Berkeley, but I know the Columbia student did. He turned it down to go to Columbia. He was however a top student at Midd. Finally, I know of a student who applied to Berkeley for Urban Planning. He was admitted. He was also admitted to UNC (full ride), and Cornell (half tuition). He chose Cornell - for those who aren’t aware, it’s one of the top two programs in Urban Planning. This student didn’t even graduate in the top HALF of his class. All this is to say that Middlebury prepares students very well for graduate application. </p>
<p>Let me close by noting Governor Brown’s recent announcement of the $16 Billion dollar state deficit. The future for a school like Berkeley is not bright. Again, I think it is a fine school. It’s simply that denying Middlebury’s strengths is not the way to making it better.</p>
<p>farkula, life sciences are not part of the engineering discipline. lol</p>