Berkeley v. Columbia v. Chicago

[bluedevilmike]

<p>

**bluedevilmike: **Columbia is a better law school – faculty, opportunities, student caliber. Just as importantly, the OP has always been in California and the networking, experience, and knowledge of the country will be enhanced by crossing coasts.

</p>

<p>

**RML: **I’d like to see you back up your assertions with some verifiable data.

</p>

<p>Okay, let’s play.</p>

<hr>

<p>

**bluedevilmike: **faculty

</p>

<p>1.) [240</a> vs. 215,](<a href=“http://leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008faculty_impact.shtml]240”>Brian LeiterTop Ten Law Faculties in Scholarly Impact, 2005-2008) admittedly a minor difference. Although, larger than the difference between Berkeley and Duke – so if Berkeley and Columbia are basically identical, is Duke?</p>

<p>2.) But that’s not really what we’re looking at, because the OP has told us he’s most interested in the crits. So, in his own words:

What better place to study these issues when they have Kimberle Crenshaw, Patricia Williams, Ted Shaw, Jack Greenberg, Katherine Franke, and Susan Sturm!

</p>

<p>3.) Faculty student ratio is [9.5</a> (CLS) vs. 12.3 (UCB)](<a href=“http://www.bcgsearch.com/pdf/BCG_Law_School_Guide_2009.pdf]9.5”>http://www.bcgsearch.com/pdf/BCG_Law_School_Guide_2009.pdf).</p>

<hr>

<p>

**bluedevilmike: **opportunities

</p>

<p>1.) Hard to measure, because it’s unclear exactly which is the most prestigious sector. Fortunately, the OP has solved this dilemma for us:</p>

<p>

I will most likely go into private practice

</p>

<p>Okay, so let’s check out the big law firms (the “NLJ 250”).</p>

<p>[CLS:</a> 74.8%, UCB 53.7%](<a href=“http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080414gotoschools.jpg]CLS:”>http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080414gotoschools.jpg)</p>

<p>(NB: The chart looks a little funny: Harvard and Yale rank fairly low. Adding a clerkship correction fixes this. With that correction from the BCG report, we get CLS 83.8%, UCB 65.7%.)</p>

<p>2.) Leiter uses another ranking. His rather complicated index has [CLS at #1 with 1.53, while Berkeley is at the bottom of the T14, with 0.59.](<a href=“Top 15 Law Schools From Which Elite U.S. Law Firms Hire New Lawyers”>http://leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml&lt;/a&gt;) </p>

<p>3.) Alternatively, you can look at the most selective measure of all: SCOTUS Clerkships.</p>

<p>CLS: 18, class size 400
UCB: 11, class size 309 (see NLJ chart for class size; Leiter is unreliable on this point)</p>

<p>22 CLS students per year per clerkship over nine years; 28 UCB students, for a [27%</a> difference](<a href=“http://leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000_08_scotus_clerks.shtml]27%”>Brian Leiter Supreme Court Clerkship Placement, 2000 Thourgh 2008 Terms). Astronomical? No. Noticeable? Probably.</p>

<hr>

<p>

**bluedevilmike: **student caliber

</p>

<p>IQR LSAT, GPA (midpoints):
Berkeley: 163-170 (167), 3.64-3.9 (3.77)</p>

<p>Columbia: 169-174 (172), 3.56-3.81 (3.69).</p>

<p>So Berkeley wins on GPA, but CLS wins on LSAT. High GPAs are much, much more common among undergrads than high LSAT scores when we’re in this range; a much higher number of prelaw candidates are viable candidates at UCB than at CLS.</p>

<p>Of course, Berkeley has an idiosyncratic, GPA-heavy admissions process. So here’s a helpful way.</p>

<p>Ranked among the T14 by GPA (rounded to hundredth),
[Berkeley</a> is #4 while CLS is tied with two others for #6. Not a huge gap. Ranked among the T14 by LSAT, though, CLS is #3, while Berkeley is dead-last at #14.](<a href=“http://leiterrankings.com/students/2008student_quality.shtml]Berkeley”>Brian Leiter Student Quality, 2008)</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://leiterrankings.com/students/2008student_quality.shtml][/url”>Brian Leiter Student Quality, 2008][/url</a>]</p>

<p>*
NB: You are correct that yield rate and admissions percentage are basically identical (In fact, UCB has a slight edge in both). This is, in my judgment, a reflection of UCB’s status as an in-state school (lower tuition) and, more importantly, a reflection on UCB’s idiosyncratic admissions process. Because UCB has a different admissions process, competition for its admits is less intense.</p>

<p>(Imagine the median CLS student, who had a 3.7/172; where else would he have gotten into? Imagine the mean UCB student, who has a 167/3.77. Where else is he getting in?)*</p>

<hr>

<p>Those were my core assertions. You added a straw man.</p>

<p>

**RML:**I don’t see it as more prestigious than Berkeley law.

</p>

<p>This wasn’t part of my claim. Nonetheless, I’m curious. So let me pull up the only issue of USN which I have, the 2007 issue. I recognize it’s a little old, so I will have to retract the statement if this has changed.</p>

<p>The peer assessment score gives CLS a 0.2-pointe edge. Huge? No, but it’s the same as the gap between Harvard and Columbia. The lawyers/judges score is again 0.2. Huge? Again, no, but the gap to Harvard/Yale/Stanford is only 0.1 points.</p>

<p>So the gap from Harvard to Columbia is about the same – or perhaps even smaller – than the gap from Columbia to Berkeley.</p>

<p>In other words, if you’re going to claim that Berkeley is basically identical to Columbia, you also have to be prepared to argue that Harvard is basically identical to Columbia.</p>

<hr>

<p>Finally, however, all this is only half of what I said. The other half is this:

**bluedevilmike: **Just as importantly, the OP has always been in California and the networking, experience, and knowledge of the country will be enhanced by crossing coasts.

</p>

<p>That’s the component I’ll continue to emphasize. This is the point the OP made, and it’s absolutely correct.</p>

<p>He made the right choice.</p>