Berkeley v. Cornell for bio (premed) with some concerns about fine art classes

<p>I am deciding between Berkeley and Cornell. I want to major in molecular bio and follow a pre-med track. Which college provide better research opportunities and better counseling/support or environment for pre-med students? It seems like Cornell has better acceptance rate into med school but how's the real situation? Is there any pre screening Cornell uses??</p>

<p>I am also really interested in art and want to take studio art classes in college. I know Cornell has a very famous architecture school so probably it also has pretty decent art program? However, I called Cornell but they told me first year student almost never have the chance to get into studio art classes due to the class size limit. I know nothing about how strong the fine art program at Berkeley is and I don't know anyone who major in art there personally. </p>

<p>I haven't received my financial aid packet from Cornell but a friend of mine who has slightly higher family income than me get $5,000/year loan + $2,500 work study and I expect my aid to be in similar range. I got the regent scholarship from Berkeley and have a full aid (around $25,000/year) there. btw, my friend who will need to take $5,000/year loan at Cornell also got regent in Cal but needs to pay $1,000/year there =>does it mean that my loan at Cornell should be less than $5,000/year?</p>

<p>Anyways, can you guys give me some advices? Where should I go??
/___\
I am going to study my butt off in college so my first priority is the prestige the college has.</p>

<p>Cornell doesn't screen its med school applicants like JHU. The premed courses alone filter out about 4/5 of premed wannabes.</p>

<p>thanks to all the replies!!</p>

<p>to joshua,</p>

<p>yeah...I think you are probably right.
Some concerns I have about choosing Berkeley is that 1. Berkeley seems to have worse counseling & support for its pre-med students than Cornell, and the acceptance rate to med school isn't as good as Cornell. 2. Cornell seems to have a better art department? (not sure about this one. does anyone here know anything about art in Cal?) </p>

<p>any advice?</p>

<p>Cal is just as prestigious as Cornell? Maybe it's because I'm a California resident, but it seems to me like getting into Berkeley was a cake. For instance, some people without any extracurriculars and only average stats got in; only 2 people got to go to Cornell in 10 years.</p>

<p>okay, and for the reasons why I personally picked Cornell over Cals with a Regents and Cal grant (just like in your case) was for the following reasons:
1. I hear the premed advising is bad at Berkeley.
2. I wanted to experience the east coast for a change before going back to the west for graduate school.
3. Cornell is an Ivy League school so if premed doesn't work for me I have more options (prestige and very strong departments all across).
4. The food at Cornell is great.
5. Perhaps a myth, but it is said that a Cornell GPA is multiplied by a number to increase its value for med schools.
6. Cornell has a higher acceptance rate for med schools.
7. The girls here are... not so great, so I can concentrate on work.</p>

<p>I also was accepted at Cal with Regents but chose Cornell over Cal.</p>

<p>One of the main reasons I chose Cornell is because of the expanded opportunities that Cornell has in the engineering department. While Cal's project teams (didn't see many) were struggling to get funding and fundraise, Cornell had an abundance of teams all very well funded and very well managed and led. Furthermore, the advising at Cornell is much better than Cal.</p>

<p>However, I'd have to say that Cal girls are uglier than Cornell girls.</p>

<p>it seems like no one here knows about the art program at either college?</p>

<p>So is it true that premed is better at Cornell than Berkeley?</p>

<p>I faced the same dilemma a few years ago: Cornell Biology or UC Berkeley....and I chose Berkeley. My 3 years at Berkeley were fantastic (I'm spending my 4th year at Stanford getting an MS degree), and I cannot imagine getting a better natural sciences education than the one I received at Berkeley (between you and me, the quality of undergraduate Bio education at Berkeley is better than the one my undergrad friends at Stanford are getting). Although Cornell was a strong contender to Berkeley, the cost and location led me to Berkeley....and in retrospect, going to a UC school for undergrad should have been a no-brainer for a California resident such as myself.</p>

<p>You have to understand that the mandate of the University of California is to provide the best education to the most students at the cheapest price possible...but if you are motivated, you can easily "horde" the resources and get an education that easily surpasses the one I'm getting as a graduate student at Stanford, and for in-state tuition if you are a California resident.</p>

<p>As much as I think US News Rankings are garbage, I am forever grateful to them. If the naive over-achievers in high schools truly understood what an undergraduate education was worth in the real world, understood how arbitrary college rankings are, and really understood how great the quality of education at the University of California schools are, I really doubt I would have been accepted at Berkeley years ago. Instead, many over-achievers (from my cohort and yours) choose to shun the UC schools, and instead dish out loads of money and travel across the country for what they perceive as a better education. "Of course, it's an Ivy League school". Prestige is reputation by affiliation, not reputation by any meaningful accomplishment. You could go to any elite school and you will find that many, if not most, of the grad students and professors went to “no-name” schools…….. In this day and age of standardized education and electronic resources, the quality of education you receive is almost completely dependent on YOU. Your aptitude will always fall short of opportunity, at Cornell, Berkeley, or Cal State (for those of you not familiar with California’s public colleges, Cal State schools are regional 4-year public colleges that are universally viewed as being “inferior” to the University of California schools) ….and this Cal State girl is going to Harvard Medical School: <a href="http://www.eurekareporter.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?ArticleID=10667%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eurekareporter.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?ArticleID=10667&lt;/a>
College is what you make of it. Your school will give you a piece of paper and an affiliation, YOU will give YOURSELF an education. </p>

<p>Regarding pre-med at Berkeley: Berkeley’s relatively low admit percentage can be attributed to two things: 1) As with Cornell, Berkeley does not have a pre-med committee that screens applicants to determine who can apply and who cannot; 2) 90% of Berkeley pre-meds are California residents, and California’s state medical schools (UCSF, UCLA, UCSD, UCI, UCD) are all ultra-competitive to get into. In other words, being a California resident is a disadvantage because the state schools are actually harder to get into than most reputable private schools (Cawaiigirl, you’re a California resident, so you’re going to be at a disadvantage whether you go to Berkeley or Cornell). Now contrast this with Cornell, which has a more broadly represented student population- the NY resident at Cornell can apply to private schools but has the less competitive SUNY medical schools as “backup”, the Texas resident has a whole slew of state medical schools as “backup”, etc etc. For a California resident, the reputable private schools often ARE the backup. Stanford being 50% California residents may explain why Stanford’s med acceptance rate of 75% (according to my pre-med friends at Stanford) is lower than you’d expect from a school of Stanford’s reputation. </p>

<p>College “advising” is over-rated. Maybe it’s just my personality, but I found it a burden to have to constantly meet up with major/college advisors at Berkeley- there are plenty of electronic resources out there such that YOU can school your advisor. It’s just a matter of being lazy and having things fed to you, or taking the initiative to do things on your own. I prefer the latter. </p>

<p>About being an art major at Berkeley…. I cannot tell you much. I only knew one art major at Berkeley, and she’s in Dartmouth Medical School now. </p>

<p>As a final note: SAVE THAT TUITION $$$ FOR GRAD/PROFESSIONAL SCHOOL! But if you are going to Cornell, you might be lucky to have one of my best friends from Berkeley as your TA- he's starting his PhD there soon.</p>

<p>To Formerlyabcdefgh</p>

<p>Thanks for your reply. Can you tell me something about this MS degree program you are doing? (3 years at Cal + 1 year at Stanford)
Are you a pre-med as well? Or you want to go to grad school?</p>

<p>Now I kind of want to choose Berkeley over Cornell...</p>

<p>Any more thought?</p>

<p>True, you could just as well go to a public library and get an education for free, but I still think "the paper" matters in opening positions. Plus, it's an ego booster so you won't really need to prove yourself as much.</p>

<p>I can give you a long response but it all depends on your personal preferences. If you think money will be an issue then Berkeley is the better choice. Other than that, I think it will be splitting hairs and talking about personal prefernces. I personally perfer having the option of using a functional advising system in addition to seeking information out of personal initiative.</p>

<p>And here are some notable alumi of Cornell:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cornell_University_people%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cornell_University_people&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And I also hear that proportionately more private school premeds get into med schools than do public school premeds.</p>

<p>And most all Cornell alumni medical students tell me that Cornell premed makes medical school seem like cake. One of my friends also went to Harvard Medical from Harvard Undergrad and he told me that people who went to Cornell for med school were at the top of his class (represented in high proportions also).</p>

<p>theslowclap</p>

<p>Can you be more specific about the counseling or advising you are talking about here? I still don't know what are these counseling things are about in colleges. So is it like you go to the career center and talk to people there, or pre-med students actually have some sort of communities and have group activities together.</p>

<p>btw thanks a lot for replying.
All your advices are really helpful.</p>

<p>I don't know about the quality of Berkeley's advising (although the atrocious acceptance rates to Top 20 schools suggests that it leaves much to be desired) but Cornell's advising is very good, specifically, Judy Jensvold. She is extremely knowledgeable about the application process, keeps herself up to date by attending premed advising conferences, and holds seminars throughout the year on various aspects of premed and applying. Yesterday, I attended one of her seminars in which she went through the AMCAS application PAGE BY PAGE telling us how to fill it out. She holds separate seminars on rec letters, waitlists, interviewing, etc. etc. etc. She responds to emails in a prompt manner and has walk-in hours.</p>

<p>By counseling resources, I mean that you can walk into a little room and there will be people there ready to talk to you about what courses to take, how to plan your studies, etc. I only used this once but I still think it's nice that it's there if you need them. Other than that, if you're a very independent person, this shouldn't be the main deciding factor between Berkeley and Cornell. Both schools are great for undergrads.</p>

<p>What I think is more important is:
1. Money
2. Weather
3. Distance from home
4. Special programs you have in mind (like engineering mixed with premed etc.)</p>

<p>As for Money, I don't think $5,000/year loan for Cornell is too bad. I can probably make around $4,000 just in summer and I guess I can just use that to pay back the loan?</p>

<p>I am more concerned about how each college prepares its student for med school...I mean, an acceptance to medical school certainly worths me to spend the extra $20,000 and live in a crappy climate. </p>

<p>as for 1. money ->Cal completely beats Cornell
2. weather -> Cal completely beats Cornell
3. distance from home -> Cal completely beats CORNELL
4. special programs -> ?if regent can count as a program then Cal>Cornell</p>

<p>These numbers scare me:</p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>4 out of 350 applicants accepted to Harvard? I don't see top OOS med schools paying any respect to Berkeley.</p>

<p>anyone has the stats for cornell regarding where all the premed students go after undergrad??</p>

<p>I'm scared too.</p>

<p>Oh yea, this is also very important (at least for me).</p>

<p>Cornell is above quantitative reasoning. Any subjective mention of Cornell will have people pee their pants and cry. lol sorry, couldn't resist.</p>

<p>1) The Berkeley Career Center website only shows numbers for LESS THAN ONE-THIRD of Berkeley applicants for that year (graduating seniors that released data to Berkeley).....the graduating seniors that didn't release data, the "time-off" applicants that released data, and "time-off" applicants that didn't release data (such as myself) are not represented......so don't look into the numbers too much.</p>

<p>2) Top 20 medical schools according to US News....please, as if their rankings for medical schools aren't as arbitrary as their rankings for colleges. Every medical school faculty member I have talked to says that where one goes to medical school MEANS VERY LITTLE in the real world. Do you think the residents, attendings, and profs at Harvard Med that will be teaching the medical students went to Harvard Med as medical students? Or JHU? Or WashU? Think again. The majority of them went to schools not ranked in the top 20. Physicians aren't useful until they are in residency and beyond, and medical school is to residency what undergrad is to graduate school. </p>

<p>For the naive worshippers of US News rankings out there....</p>

<p>In the 1998 edition of US News Ranking of Medical Schools, Stanford Medical School was ranked #10:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.stanford.edu/group/spa/meds/rank.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanford.edu/group/spa/meds/rank.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Impressive, except for the fact that.......</p>

<p>In 1999, Stanford Medical School ALMOST DIDN'T GET ACCREDITED:</p>

<p><a href="http://daily.stanford.edu/article/1999/4/6/medSchoolBarelyEscapesProbation%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://daily.stanford.edu/article/1999/4/6/medSchoolBarelyEscapesProbation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I'm sorry if I hurt the feelings of all the US News Rankings worshippers out there....</p>

<p>3) I interviewed at several reputable medical schools, and Berkeley students were overwhelmingly represented at most of the places I interviewed at. Oddly enough, at every school I interviewed at, I met at least one of my former Berkeley classmates attending that school as a first-year. When I interviewed at U of Michigan, there were more Berkeley students interviewing there that day than from ALL the Ivy League schools COMBINED. </p>

<p>4) In the world of medical school admissions, your goal should not be to get into a "top" medical school.....consider yourself fortunate if you could get into ONE medical school. If you're a California resident, consider yourself REALLY lucky if you could get into a California medical school. Personally, I withdrew from EVERY SINGLE Ivy League medical school once I got accepted to a California school very early on in the process. To me, location by itself was enough to axe ANY medical school east of California once I had a spot in California. I have been in the higher-education game long enough to know that prestige carries surprisingly little value, and the only people I've met who place much value in prestige are people whose opinions carry very little value in the real world anyway (teenie-boppers, trophy wives, an elitist U. of Chicago graduate that worked an unimportant job that any highschool graduate could do, among a few others). </p>

<p>Cawaiigirl, unless you visited Cornell and KNOW that you'd rather be there than at Berkeley for 4 years of your youth, and all the cons of attending Cornell over Berkley are trivial compared to your love for Cornell.........GO TO BERKELEY. You may also want to consider the other UCs too, btw.</p>

<p>This could be home.....</p>

<p><a href="http://static.flickr.com/39/79109171_5d3b23bf6c_o.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://static.flickr.com/39/79109171_5d3b23bf6c_o.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.terragalleria.com/california/region.sf-bay-area.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.terragalleria.com/california/region.sf-bay-area.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>lol we're all from the Bay Area. We know what it looks like.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The data from Berkeley is incomplete but is self-selected. As we see from College Confidential, from MDapplicants, from Student Doctor, self-selection produces higher than average stats. If you included data from those "missing" Berkeley applicants, you would have even lower acceptance rates. Thank your lucky stars that only the best applicants from Berkeley have chosen to release their data. </p></li>
<li><p>I agree with you on your other points. I've spent half of my posts on the premed forum yelling at HSers who think it's their mission in life to graduate as a neurosurgeon from HMS. If the OP has no aspirations to go to a Top 20 med school as dictated by US News, then I apologize for bringing up Berkeley's atrocious acceptance rates. Sadly, I don't have data for the Rosalind Franklins or Drexels of the world.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>How big of a deal is Regents anyway? I got Regents for UCLA and I wasn't even accepted at the school.</p>