Berkeley vs Caltech vs Cornell

College Search & Selection
1

<p>So SIR deadline is in a week, and I've narrowed it down to these three schools. I'd really like to avoid having to resort to throwing dice and flipping coins (my parents have started doing this), so any input will be appreciated.</p>

<p>Berkeley</p>

<p>Pros: The one and only time I've been there was during Cal Day. I was mostly at the Engineering part, and that part looked really nice; it helped that the weather was nice and sunny. The people I met were generally friendly, though I can't really trust this, since it was Cal Day, and they pretty much had to be :x There were clubs relevant to my interests, and Berkeley offers a good variety of foreign language and study abroad programs. Engineering program is also very strong, and there seem to be a good amount of research opportunities.</p>

<p>Cons: The budget cuts are really worrying me - even though the Engineering students said that getting classes wouldn't be difficult, I'm not very optimistic. The large class sizes and large student body population are also overwhelming. There also seems to be a lot of competition; a professor I talked to said that students don't usually collaborate unless explicitly encouraged to do so. I applied as an Industrial Engineering major, but I realized after Cal Day that I don't like the major that much; however, students say that it shouldn't be difficult to switch majors (unless I decide to take EE/Chemical Engineering). This isn't really a deciding factor, but Cal is a bit too close to home, I'd say.</p>

<p>**Caltech<a href="If%20relevant%20-%20intended%20option%20is%20ACM%20or%20ChE.">/b</a></p>

<p>Pros: Though the campus didn't have the same immediate effect as Berkeley's, I found it relaxing and overall aesthetically pleasing. I visited during PF2, and although most of the current students I met didn't even know it was PF2, they were really friendly, and I could tell that they weren't acting this way just because they knew I was a prefrosh. The atmosphere was really awesome - there was a lot of amusing banter during the dinner at one of the houses, and although the students don't deny that Caltech is hard, most of them seemed to have a good time. The Honor Code, the housing system, and the pranking traditions are also really appealing. Caltech is one of the best at providing research opportunities to undergrads, which is a definite plus. Also, location - not too far from home, and close enough to go to concerts in LA once in a while :P</p>

<p>Cons: Caltech is really expensive for me - even after fin aid appeal, my family will still have to pay ~$49k annually, i.e., almost $20k more than my other two options. It can probably be paid for, but finances will be tight for my parents. Also worried that the five terms of physics might be too difficult, though a Techer I know assured me that it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Study abroad programs seem strong, but choices are limited (no options in Asia, but I think there's a Japan internship program...?) My parents aren't too fond of the really small class size (and consequently, a smaller networking base), which does not help convince them that Caltech is worth the extra cost.</p>

<p>Cornell</p>

<p>Pros: The campus seems really gorgeous (based on pictures; I haven't visited Cornell), and the general consensus seems to be that the food is really good. The engineering program is very strong, and I like how it won't be too difficult for me to change my mind about Chemical Engineering. Cornell also has the co-op program, which sounds like a really good way to get hands-on engineering experience. The scheduling seems flexible enough to also accommodate my interest in foreign languages, and the study abroad programs seem really good too. There's no denying that its name recognition is very strong; also, alumni network is extensive, which is an advantage in finding a job. Cost-wise, Cornell offered a lot of financial aid - not including plane tickets, it will be slightly less expensive to attend Cornell than to attend Berkeley.</p>

<p>Cons: However, not having a chance to visit the campus is making the decision difficult - it's in the East Coast, and the last time I've gone there was more than a decade ago. I have no idea what the weather there is like (besides legitimately cold during the winter), and what people there are like. I've also read about how students are depressed and not very friendly, though someone I know who goes there says otherwise. Like Berkeley, the large class size is also a bit overwhelming.</p>

<p>Thanks everyone! :)</p>

2

<p>You can find depressed/happy and friendly/unfriendly people everywhere. I don’t think Cal Tech is realistic, it’s simply too expensive. The cost of flights back and forth from Ithaca pretty much makes your cost even.</p>

<p>Don’t worry about the budget cuts, Cal and UCLA are the last affected because they have significant endowments in their own right and get a small % of their money from the state. That said, your worries would be completely put to rest by going to Cornell, (that is until the next crisis hits) </p>

<p>I really think it depends what you want, Cal might be “too close to home” well Ithaca about as far as it can get and while still living in the US. How adventurous are you? </p>

<p>The schools are pretty even, I think it really depends more about the intangibles. If I could do it all over again, I might opt for a new adventure, but as a younger person I was not as inclined, I do kinda regret it now though, knowing what I know.</p>

3

<p>I would have encouraged you to go to Caltech, because it is Caltech – extremely selective, highly personalized approach, great chances for research involvement, very good chances of getting into a top grad school, very prestigious school name, beautiful campus and great weather. However, the cost is just too much for your family to bear. Even if you’re rich, 49k per year is still a huge amount of money, and especially that you have an option to acquire the same degree for a substantially lower cost. </p>

<p>You should disregard Cornell completely when you have Berkeley as a choice. And this is especially true for your case as an In-State student. Cornell is a great school and is strong for engineering. But where ever Cornell is strong, Berkeley seems to do just better.</p>

<p>So, your best choice now is Berkeley – cheapest amongst the 3 choices, top 3 engineering program in the world, very prestigious school name with global recognition, great college town, and the school offers great campus experience.</p>

4

<p>Would it still do any good if I called Caltech (tomorrow) and made a last-ditch fin aid re-appeal? :x</p>

<p>SISTOKID, if you don’t mind, please elaborate on your last statement. I’m curious as to what your experience was, since you say that you would have done something else.</p>

<p>RML, would you say that the difference between Berkeley Eng. and Cornell Eng. is substantial in all majors, or are there some which Cornell would have an edge in? Also, do you know whether the Berkeley engineering curriculum has a more theoretical approach than Cornell’s?</p>

5

<p>To my knowledge,there are no reliable rankings of undergrad programs. Most rankings I’ve seen relate to graduate programs and faculty research, either directly or indirectly.</p>

<p>Berkeley has outstanding graduate programs, however the extent to which that impacts the undergraduate experience, differentially, is something that one would have to investigate. I have no idea, myself.</p>

<p>I hear many people expressing concern about class sizes, impacted majors which are difficult to switch into, and budget cuts. If these do not affect faculty research they may have little impact on rankings based on research. Nevertheless they may negatively impact the undergraduate experience.</p>

<p>There are many prior thread you can, and should read. e.g:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/888248-cornell-vs-uc-berkeley-2.html?[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/888248-cornell-vs-uc-berkeley-2.html?&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/845741-berkeley-vs-duke-vs-cornell-vs-cmu-electrical-computer-engineering-2.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/845741-berkeley-vs-duke-vs-cornell-vs-cmu-electrical-computer-engineering-2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

6

<p>I went to a great school, but could have gone to an even better school. (I was first in fam to go to college so my knowledge was a bit limited and there was not internet back then haha)</p>

<p>But the larger point, I think the opportunity to have an adventure/life learning experience is just as significant as the quality of the school and you have some very fine choices. Cornell might offer the opportunity to have it all - a great life experience and a great education. You are in a great position to take advantage of that. Had I had a more holistic approach to my decision I would have gone to the other school just for the experience of living/learning in a different world than what I was accustomed to.</p>

<p>Of course I usually opt for aid over these factors, but you are in a unique position. Good Luck!</p>

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<p>so the USNWR undergraduate engineering rankings are not reliable?</p>

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<p>IIRC when I looked at their criteria some years ago, it seemed heavily weighted towards the same faculty research reputation metrics, have not looked since, OP can check.</p>

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<p>^^^^what are you talking about?</p>

<p>the USNWR undergraduate engineering rankings are a peer assessment from the heads of the particular department in the colleges that have those departments around the country.</p>

<p>from USNWR:</p>

<p>*"Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs Ranking Methodology </p>

<p>These undergrad engineering programs were ranked solely on a peer assessment survey. To appear on an undergraduate engineering survey, a school must have a program accredited by ABET. These programs are split into two groups: schools whose highest engineering degree offered is a doctorate and schools whose highest engineering degree offered is a bachelor’s or master’s. "*</p>

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<p>So it’s all peer assessment. IMO peer assessment is heavily influenced by what peers know most about. Which is faculty research. And peers are probably not evaluating certain aspects that may be important to undergrads and not faculty researchers, such as undergrad class sizes and impacted majors. But nobody knows what the “peers” are really thinking about when they give their evaluations, so YMMV.</p>

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<p>OP, did you contact the FA office at Caltech to see if they would match your Cornell FA offer? Both are private colleges and Caltech has a huge/ per student endowment, so I would advise you to contact them asap!</p>

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<p>so monydad, are you saying that the specific departments at each university, who are exposed to undergraduates from other universities due to the application process for graduate school and from reviewing the performance of these undergraduate students once they enroll in the graduate program is not enough to rank these undergraduate engineering departments?</p>

<p>then what do you suggest that undergraduate engineering rankings should be based on?</p>

13

<p>I suggest use the available rankings, and the data and all other information that may be available and possibly relevant, as inputs, then use your brain to critically think about what is before you, and make sense of it all for yourself, as you see fit.</p>

<p>…and it’s M-O-N-Y, not $$.</p>

14

<p>"what do you suggest that undergraduate engineering rankings should be based on? "</p>

<p>Try these:
*% employed full time immediately after graduation
*average salary 10 years after graduation
*% eventually going to graduate schools
*average class size in UG required classes
*% of UG classes taught by TA’s as opposed to full Profs- [ this is one of the big negatives at many UC’s- TA’s[ otherwise know as graduate students] teach many lower level UG classes
*average # of years to graduate
*% of student debt upon graduation</p>

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<p>^^^menloparkmom, many of those are obvious generalized metrics for all undergraduate students, and in fact are used for the overall university ranking by USNWR and a few other sources. We are talking about ENGINEERING specifically and the quality of the departments here…</p>

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<p>@SISTOKID: Thank you! :)</p>

<p>@menloparkmom: When my dad sent an email detailing grounds for fin aid appeal, we didn’t explicitly state how much Cornell gave me, nor did we say that it was from Cornell. From what my parents have told me, the financial aid officers said that they don’t try to match aid offers from other schools. However, I will definitely call again tomorrow, and will mention the Cornell FA package.</p>

<p>As for rankings, I used to care about them, but after reading the methodology websites use, not as much. Peer evaluations will definitely result to some bias - for all we know, someone evaluating Berkeley was raised by parents who went to Stanford and was inculcated that “Cal sucks” or something like that, haha. Despite the lurking subjectivity, however, I see why rankings are useful - better to have a methodical gauge of quality than none at all.</p>

17

<p>“Try these”</p>

<p>One would have to think critically about those metrics too. </p>

<p>For example, why care about average student debt? You should care about the amount of debt you personally will have, based on what you were specifically offered.</p>

<p>Average salary depends on many factors besides what undergrad school you went to: region of the country you live, college major, job function, industry, etc. Without normalizing all these factors you would not be comparing apples to apples. The one metric that keeps getting trotted out, that payscale thing, doesn’t even include graduate degree holders, and often here we are comparing schools where the vast majority of grads get graduate degrees.</p>

<p>There is no magic formula, or table, that gives you the perfect answer necessarily, so make of it all what you will IMO.</p>

18

<p>we didn’t explicitly state how much Cornell gave me, nor did we say that it was from Cornell. "
well, I think that might have been a mistake. Peer colleges will try to adjust FA awards for students they really want. Send them the Cornell FA award letter tomorrow in a letter of appeal.</p>

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<p>LadyGoGo
I was trying to give the OP some parameters for HIS decision. There ARE large differences in the UG ENGINEERING experience between A big public U where there are thousands of EE majors- like UCB, and a small private STEM college, like CT. Class size in LD classes and who the classes are taught by may be big factors to some students. Not all LD classes at UCB are huge. so the choice of area is important. Try not to be so condescending with your responses to the posts of others.</p>

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<p>Srsly just go to caltech :d xd</p>