<p>Don't worry, you'll always have your calculator and your checkbook to keep you busy on those lonely nights. Math will keep you warm.</p>
<p>girls girls girls. at parties, even!</p>
<p>What a mighty wit you are!</p>
<p>And not a slight of wit you are!</p>
<p>Wow. That's all you've got? Really? Ok, you're officially too boring to try to have a fight with. I'll talk to my wall for the rest of the night. Thanks for nothing.</p>
<p>lol. there are only so many times you can use the same fallback line, dude, esp in the same thread. I think they made a rule about it. punishment for violation is something along the lines of embarrassing english majors everywhere... I forget the exact wording... maybe I'll derive it on the next diff eq test.</p>
<p>... I suppose there are better ways to contribute to the conversation than bickering with one another. Not only bickering with one another, but in subjects competely unrelated to Cal and Caltech.</p>
<p>AIM might be more effective for the two of you.</p>
<p>Anyway. Eh. Possibly my perceptions come from still being primarily surrounded with the college-bound student population.
Or from competition with a particular cousin who has a significant head-start at the moment.</p>
<p>I'll be first to admit that my perceptions of prestige/not are significantly skewed by surroundings.</p>
<p>he started it !!</p>
<p>pebbles, I love you.</p>
<p>Hahaha.</p>
<p>I love you too, pebbles.</p>
<p>no, don't do that </p>
<p>:|</p>
<p>
[quote]
akky, don't argue about things of which you have very summary knowledge. It's quite clear you haven't gotten any paychecks as a product manager. I have.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, believe me, I'm doing just fine for myself. </p>
<p>I never said that there weren't any designers on the Ipod team. What I am saying is that engineers were a critical component of the team, both when the Ipod was first started and today. If you are trying to say that engineers never contributed to Ipod design decisions, then I would say that it is you that is sadly mistaken. </p>
<p>If you have a personal problem with me, as apparently you seem to, then perhaps we should just deal with each other offline.</p>
<p>jesus, sakky.</p>
<p>Most design teams are cross-functional, they do include engineers, whose function is to engineer the product within the parameters set by the designers. Most consumer products design teams are lead by designers and product managers who come up with the designs and functonalities. You've basically credited the engineers for the design of the Ipod, which is definitely a stretch. That credit falls on the team leads, who conceive these products, while the engineers' role is mostly to give feedback on the technical aspects. It's a bit like how architects draw the plans and civil engineers execute these plans.</p>
<p>Well, the discussion is getting off-topic here. I graduated from UCLA. both Berkeley and CalTech are better school than mine, so fair-game for me to comment.</p>
<p>Berkeley's engineering program is being exceptional, both undergraduate and graduate school. Berkeley is a public institution and is competiting with Stanford for the 2nd place in engineering ranking. To be honest, Berkeley has a better known in the engineering field than CalTech, WORLDWIDE. For the general undergrad student body and academic program, however, CalTech suppresses. Both undergrad admission to Berkeley and CalTech are general, meanings that college departments don't step in. (Transfer applications and grad school are different cases). To be admitted by Berkeley, fill out the UC general admission form, one essay, take the standardize SAT I and SAT II!! For admitted to CalTech, you need 2 recommendations, 2 essays, fill out the time-consuming admission form, SAT I and SAT II. Despite the more complicated admission process, the SATs scores for admitted candidates/applicants are much higher in CalTech. As you can see, only students with "passion" can get into CalTech; you can't plan of a schedule to spend the least amount of effort to get into CalTech becasue if they don't see your passion, you are not considered even you 5s all APs and get a full score on the SAT. Again, they have tons of applicants with 4.0 GPA and perfect (or at least close-to-perfect) SAT scores. You have to show your passion to the CalTest admission committees in order to get in. However, for Berkeley, because for the large application pool, it is impossible to filter applicants like other private universities do. So, they believe you have the "passion" to "study well" based SOLELY on the GPA and SATs (and CA residential status). Maybe 10% of the consideration goes to the awards and activities when the candidate is in the margin of being admitted. So, same as UCLA, there must be some folks in Cal just don't know what they are doing in the school because they fulfilled the task of "getting" into berkeley. If you disagree with my point, can you tell how passionate your classmates are in Cal on what they are studying? How many of them are there just to compete with each other for grades? </p>
<p>That makes Berkeley impressive!!! It is a state-funded university and is able to do so well in most of the departments, especially engineering, with some students not ready delicated to their majors. </p>
<p>Now, when it comes to the grad school when admission is no more general and is reviewed by the faculty from the department, Berkeley can be better than CalTech -- and it is proved so!!!! </p>
<p>Summary: depends on your major, I believe you can LEARN the same thing from either CalTech or Cal. But because you are admitted to CalTech, it is very likely that you will have the passion to dig into your major. If you go to CalTech, you may be beaten by your classmates who is smarter and more passionate than you. If you go to Cal, you may get "not-so-good" grades because you are beaten off by some "hard-working" super-nerdy classmates. But, you will be able to get decent grades for sure if you go to Cal becasue you beat those "no-goal" uninspirational fellows. For me, if I get into EECS in Berkeley and ECE in CalTech, I will go to Berkeley. For CS major, go to CalTech coz the CS in Cal is BA if they can't get into EECS. For other engineering majors, flip a coin. For (majority) of the other majors, go to CalTech. </p>
<p>no matter what, Berkeley is the best PUBLIC university in the world, both undergrad and grad school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most design teams are cross-functional, they do include engineers, whose function is to engineer the product within the parameters set by the designers. Most consumer products design teams are lead by designers and product managers who come up with the designs and functonalities. You've basically credited the engineers for the design of the Ipod, which is definitely a stretch. That credit falls on the team leads, who conceive these products, while the engineers' role is mostly to give feedback on the technical aspects. It's a bit like how architects draw the plans and civil engineers execute these plans.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I never said that engineers make ALL of the design decisios. But it is an inescapable fact that engineers are part of the design process, and more generally, that the job of engineering contains a strong creative component. To state otherwise is to engage in a serious stereotype of how real-world engineering operates. I don't know a single working engineer who hasn't had to use judgment and creativity in at least some aspects of what they do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't know a single working engineer who hasn't had to use judgment and creativity in at least some aspects of what they do.[quote} ^^^ Absolutely.</p>
<p>A formidable engineer should have creativity/originality/clarity, in addition to sound math background and good physical understanding of problem.</p>
<p>This is sort of off topic, I'm pretty sure engineering students at Berkeley had to apply directly into engineering school, right? So would Berkeley's engineering program be harder to get accepted into than general Berkeley? A lot of people I know who got rejected from Berkeley had applied for engineering as their major. Would they have improved their chances of getting in had they not applied engineering?</p>
<p>A pretty good engineer can get back with very solid technical background, while a designer is judged mostly on creativity. It's the main dish for him as opposed to a side dish (if not the garnish) for engineers. Also, we're not talking about the same level of creativity, it's more about creative problem-solving for engineers as opposed to artistic creativity. Same word, different context/meaning altogether.</p>
<p>That should be "A pretty good engineer can get BY...," not "get BACK..."</p>