Berkeley vs. Stanford

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
61

<p>No, I'm confident that these people are spread throughout all majors and activities. I don't need caveats, I am self-assured in it. If you consider them confident you probably don't have high standards, no offense. And the reviews they give pretty much reflect the Berkeley experience. Here are the negative ones. I'm sure you'll pull out the positive ones (those focus on different things and as such do not refute the negative statements).</p>

<p>"The City of Berkeley. bums smell, streets smell, people smell. You can smell pot in the streets, the streets haven't been paved in years. Everyone cares so much about their own achievements and their resume. But in fact, so many people don't matter on this campus. "</p>

<p>Yep.</p>

<p>" People are here to get an education, not make friends. Socially, it's fairly dead unless you enjoy just sitting around and drinking. There is very little in the way of just going to the movies and leaving town because it is impossible to find a place to park your car, so very few people bring cars and those who do have rides are often very popular. The professors here ranged from open-minded and accepting to so close minded, the only way to get an A is to be a complete sychophant. "</p>

<p>True for a lot of humanities classes.</p>

<p>"I consider my choice to go to Berkeley- instead of going to UCI or UCR and getting a full ride- the worst decision I have ever made. Mainly because it's too hard. I consider myself pretty smart and I like a challenge. But the Computer Science Department is a sink or swim challenge. Berkeley claims to give you resources, but they usually fall short of helpful.</p>

<p>As a CS student trying to get into the major, I feel as if all I do is study. This is not the college experience I had in mind. I can't wait for the day I graduate/transfer."</p>

<p>Yep.</p>

<p>" White students are often made to feel unwelcome, particularly by some of the more "radical" professors and minority students. Racism and discrimination are prevalant and blatant on the Berkeley campus; GSI will often turn blind eyes to students who are of the same race, creed or political ideology and immediately slam anyone whose views do not coincide.
Students are just as brutal and closeminded; if you express a point of view on any subject different from a students, they immediately begin preaching and berating you -- even if your opinion is not too far afield from theirs. And if you are conservative? Don't EVEN think about it - you will be ostracized and reamed by the more politically radical students day after day"</p>

<p>Yep.</p>

<p>"I chose Berkeley over Stanford and UCLA. Dumbest decision of my life- and unlike most of the other bad decisions in my life, I was completely sober when I made this one.</p>

<p>Hmm- campus safety- there is nothing quite like the incessant harrassment from all the nutjobs the City Council allows to roam loose on the street (hey, when you have to pass resolutions condemning U.S. military action, it doesn't leave much time for solving your own problems). If you think that they don't hurt anyone, you are wrong. One of these transients was involved in the murder of my friend in a Berkeley parking garage. The streets around campus could be confused with a port-a-pody. Nothing like the smell of urine in the morning.</p>

<p>As far as the political science major goes, undergraduates are a mere blip on the department's radar screen. You need a thesis to graduate with honors. I had a professor commit and then renege on this commitment. All the other professors in this subject area claimed that they were overburdened with Ph.D. students. When I turned the department adviser to express my grievances, she shrugged her shoulders. Another friend of mine had a similar experience finding a thesis adviser. Somehow, I can't believe this was an indictment of my intelligence: I had a 4.0 in the major.</p>

<p>The curriculum itself was pathetically Berkeleyesque-this means that there is an absence of ideological diversity. Dependency theory, despite its almost universal repudiation, was still widely taught as incontrovertible fact. Hayek and Mill were never discussed. The lack of ideological diversity among the student body further hampers discussion. Few students have any familiarity with world events and political theory to contribute anything outside of the typical platitudes. Prof. A. James Gregor was the lone expcetion to this rule.</p>

<p>The large class sizes also mean that it is rare to have a professor actually evaluate your work. I found this to be a great disadvantage in graduate school programs.</p>

<p>The poli sci faculty has deteriorated significantly in the past few years. The department's luminaries such as Haas, Jowitt, Breslauer, and Janos are all gone or soon to depart. The bench is thin.</p>

<p>I viewed the graduate school admissions process as a referendum on the value of my degree. Based on my raw numbers, I was completely unimpressed with the results. Berkeley really didn't open many more doors than San Diego State.</p>

<p>However, Berkeley did teach me one very important lesson in life: if you have alienated the majority in Berkeley, you are doing something right. I dream of doing something in my life that causes thousands of Berkeleyites to hang me in effigy.</p>

<p>Even if you are liberal, this is the wrong place for anyone who loves ideas. The political correctness is stifling enough that I can identify too well with many South Park episodes. As someone who loves ideas, I was sorely disappointed with my experience."</p>

<p>Yep.</p>

<p>It goes on and on. None of the positive reviews are as specific and condemning as the negative ones (of course subjective but go decide for yourself).</p>

<p><a href="http://www.studentsreview.com/CA/UCB_comments.html?page=4&d_school=The%20University%20of%20California%20--%20Berkeley%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentsreview.com/CA/UCB_comments.html?page=4&d_school=The%20University%20of%20California%20--%20Berkeley&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

62

<p>You have no basis to judge my standards, but do what you will. Really, you're imagining people, me, how i feel about these people, then judging me on it. Do you know how far removed you are from anything real here? It's quite absurd, but you don't care. </p>

<p>Yeah, that's human nature, and the nature of the website. You and detractors complain for days, whereas any positive thread doesn't get much views, and people can't really contribute that much (perhaps because people tried not to just repeat themselves over and over again). </p>

<p>
[quote]
True for a lot of humanities classes.

[/quote]
It's great that you're so knowledgeable about that since you've gone through your six or 8 humanities classes. This is one of many examples of your taking a small part and (perhaps unknowingly?) claiming it represents the entirety.</p>

63

<p>I took philosophy, english, history, poli sci, and pyschology (? not sure if its a humanity) for my humanities. Those are the largest humanities disciplines on campus. I found the statement to be true. Though there is perhaps a tendency to overgeneralize, there is no information to go ethe other way and anecdotes are the best we have.</p>

<p>Yeah, there's self selection for the bad experiences but you can mitigate this by exploring each claim personally and see if they have substantive merit. I think most people will find that they do.</p>

<p>Not to overgeneralize again but I think its safe to say that certain parts of the Berkeley experience suck, notably in the ways pointed out anecdotally on the website. The last guy was particularly eloquent about whats wrong with Berkeley. If you want me to say something positive I'll admit Berkeley is a great value for in-staters and if you know what you're coming in to you can easily mitigate Berkeley's weaknesses and focus on its strenghts. I wish Berkeley's networking and community were close enough to have revealed what I now know sooner so I could've better spent my years. The large number of poor peers mixed with the good ones and the crappy advising were of no help to me. And I never realized until I did a bunch of school activities how truly untalented most Berkeley students are and what a waste of time it is to do anything with them.</p>

<p>If you want to make the most out of Berkeley get a professor to mentor you, thats the only way Berkeley is worth it in my opinion, especially for an out-of-stater.</p>

64

<p>Poli sci and psych are social sciences most certainly. Some consider history a social science, and a smaller group also considers philosophy a social science, but generally it's included with the humanities, as is history.</p>

65

<p>But really, your phil professor wouldn't give you above an A if you didn't agree with his or her views? Same with the others? I find that hard to believe, as long as you have strong views that you can support to them.</p>

66

<p>PAntagonus, 1.6% of Cal students were very dissatisfied with their experience. </p>

<p>And that's a very vocal 1.6%.</p>

<p>Clearly most things you hated about Berkeley were there from the start (the city, the liberal bent, large school), why didn't you have the gumption to transfer to someplace nice, clean, white and conservative like the University of Utah that would have provided you with the wonder bread experience, and leave your spot to someone who like most other Berkeley grads, was satisfied with his college experience? Tens of thousands of students were denied that privilege while you were in school...</p>

<p>It's still not too late, you can try to meet people like you on campus, there are some, if you have a semblance of social skills.</p>

67

<p><<if you="" have="" a="" semblance="" of="" social="" skills.="">></if></p>

<p>Well, that would be the key. </p>

<p>PA, thank you for your definition. You said: <<talented students="" are="" motivated="" for="" one.="" that="" already="" cuts="" the="" student="" population="" in="" berkeley="" by="" less="" than="" half.="" talented="" smart="" and="" self-improving.="" down="" even="" more.="" people="" at="" just="" join="" their="" own="" little="" clique,="" never="" challenge="" themselves="" live="" vacuous="" bubble.="">></talented></p>

<p>Clearly, you must number yourself among the untalented students at Cal, then. No offense, but if Berkeley is the pit that you describe, you (as a talented student) would have been motivated to leave for greener pastures after a year at most. Or you ( as a smart and self-improving student) would have decided to change your situation, applying your intelligence and motivation to the problems at hand. Instead, it appears that you spend time in one of those vacuous cliques (one or two cyber alliances on CC) and spend an amazing amount of energy slamming the vast majority of students at one of the nation's top universities, 95% of whom you have never met. I can only assume your writings here are an expression of self-hatred and that you are one of those you profess to loathe. </p>

<p>I do feel badly for you, Polite Antagonis. Hasn't anyone ever told you that you have the power to change things (whether by staying or leaving)? What kind of prison have you built for yourself in your years in college? I mean, I guess it's nice and safe to get virtual attention on a computer board by behaving this way, but it's a lot more meaningful to work for change in real life.</p>

<p>As a mom of a kid not much younger than you are, I feel sad about who you are letting yourself become. There's a man in our community who for the past 25 years has spoken during public comments at every city council or county board meeting. Once each week, he launches into a ridiculous over-generalized diatribe, complete with name calling. It's sad because sometimes the criticisms (and it's always criticism, never a compliment) have a grain of truth to them, but the reputation he's built over three decades ensures that nobody, not the press nor the officials nor the public, listens to a word he says. Everyone leaves when he talks, or they talk amongst themselves. He babbles on and on until his official time is up. He runs for office every year and gets a couple hundred votes and his name in the paper. And basically, he's the community's token gadfly, angry about everything, respected on nothing, always thinking that if he convinces just one person, it will have been time well spent.</p>

68

<p>
[quote]
However, Berkeley did teach me one very important lesson in life: if you have alienated the majority in Berkeley, you are doing something right. I dream of doing something in my life that causes thousands of Berkeleyites to hang me in effigy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is when this person realizes there's something wrong with his/her personality. If he/she can alienate that many people, there's clearly something wrong with him/her.</p>

<p>Berkeley has many flaws, but not as many as stated. PA, you're making it look comparable with the underworld. It's really not that bad and it's rather enjoyable in various ways.</p>

69

<p>If prestige is the only concern and you're not an engineering major, Stanford is the clear choice. If you bring money into the picture, it becomes a tougher choice. Even with the benefit of financial aid, my friends are still paying off their student loans (10 yrs after the fact!). I was done paying Cal's stuff off 5 yrs ago, which was great because I went to a private law school. If graduate school at a private institution is in your future, 4 yrs for private undergrad tuition and room and board can really be an albatross around your neck, either for you or your family. Throw in college environment and Cal really starts to look appealing over Stanford. I'll tell you this much...I don't recall any...ANY Cal students wanting to go to Stanford to hang out. Its a joke, even amongst Stanford students. The place is called the "farm" for a reason. It looks like one big suburbia. You freakin need a bike to get from one place to another. I worked in Palo Alto for a bit, and I was one of many people that commuted in from San Francisco (that's a 1 hr commute each way) because its so boring in Palo Alto. Its peaceful, for sure.</p>

<p>I remember "catching" Stanford students hanging out at Berkeley. They would make Friday night trips to Berkeley and then to S.F.. Ask any Stanford grad. whether they liked to "hang out" at Stanford. Oh, they will tell you they loved their classes, their classmates, etc. But I have NEVER come across one Stanford alum. that honestly liked "hanging out" at Stanford.</p>

<p>Take a trip there. Hang out. The difference between Stanford and Cal's environment will be glaring. The place that compares most favorably to Cal is probably NYU and its surrounding Greenwich Village area. At Stanford, you walk out of class, get on your bike, pedal along quiet, well-manicured roads, and meet up with your friends in idyllic settings. At Cal, you get out of class, walk into Berkeley, pass by numerous street bands, listen to the ranting and raving of wackos and activists, choose from the myriad of ethnic restaurants, and mingle with the rest of the student body. Its controlled chaos, and its freakin FUN. Everyday, there's something new and quirky to hear or see.</p>

70

<p>I'm annonymous and a graduating senior so I have little in the way of classes. And a lot of the things I pointed out were not generic stuff that was already here, there only a part of the bigger picture. The biggest thing is how little the administration cares about undergraduates and how the faculty is deteriorating due to money problems and institutional inertia. I had no idea these things existed before I came here and of course as a normal person I tried to overcome them. Its just not worth the headache.</p>

<p>For the student body, I would daresay the students in California have been getting progressively dumber over time. Maybe someone who had attended 10-15 years ago would've had a smart body, but today's student is unread, and unmotivated, probably due to the liberal mentality of entitlement which I have encountered so often on this campus. The only hobbies that most people on campus have are all work related. Its sad. </p>

<p>For the 1.6%, there is also another 15-45% that are dissatisfied in various ways. Lets face it, most Cal students couldn't have made any better than Berkeley by far and as thus they are probably happy to have Berkeley's reputation to their sorry names. I would consider myself somewhat unsatisfied, I've learned a lot of things about liberalism and life that I wouldn't have learned elsewhere, but I certainly don't think that experience was worth the money I paid or the way it crippled my professional school admissions. And I am leaving, and gladly at that, for greener pastures.</p>

<p>If you chose to alienate Berkeley you are in the right; Berkeley is a microcosm the small sliver of the US population which is so liberal it defies common sense. </p>

<p>And if I had to do it over I would've gone to Duke or have applied to University of Virginia and gone there instead. University of Utah is actually a great school and Mormons are a very nice people despite their idiosyncrasies. Its nice for you to reveal the typical liberal distaste for the kind of views which are dominant and successful in America.</p>

<p>I wish I had transferred out sophmore year; my experience had yet to become bad enough for me to warrant leaving but I figured I would try to intensify my student participation. Big mistake, the student body at Cal is ridiculously untalented and all of the things I did were a waste of time. I would have transferred junior year if I could have but of course California bureacracy is much too thick for that. </p>

<p>I guess a lot of the things are mitigated if you're in state. You've grown up with the, in my opinion, idiotic california culture and probably already have friends here. Since the standard is also lower for in-state you probably aren't aiming to go to anywhere better than a middle, middle-class career and Berkeley is good at churning those out.</p>

<p>But for the 15% that are out-of-staters, international students, and those that have big dreams and big talent to back it up, AVOID Berkeley at all costs, especially if you make it into a better school like the top privates, lacs, and other publics (Yes, UVA, UW, UT are all better than Berkeley). You won't regreat it.</p>

71

<p>"the student body at Cal is ridiculously untalented"</p>

<p>I thought we decided these vast generalizations didn't do anyone any good. Or are you going back to the days of old, when your slander got you booted from cc 4 or 5 times?</p>

72

<p>
[quote]
For the 1.6%, there is also another 15-45% that are dissatisfied in various ways.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sure, dissatisfied in various ways, but you might be able to make it an even higher percentage. If you’re talking about significant ways, your made up statistic should probably drop a lot.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Lets face it, most Cal students couldn't have made any better than Berkeley by far and as thus they are probably happy to have Berkeley's reputation to their sorry names.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Which schools do you include in the “better” category? I’m just curious. Depending on what you name, it changes whether or not your guess is correct.</p>

<p>
[quote]
the way it crippled my professional school admissions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, you’re going to shabby Columbia law. Oh, but I guess Berkeley prevented you from getting into Harvard Law, or Stanford or Yale Law, which would have obviously happened had you gone to say Duke. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I would have transferred junior year if I could have but of course California bureacracy is much too thick for that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They prevented you from transferring?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess a lot of the things are mitigated if you're in state. You've grown up with the, in my opinion, idiotic california culture and probably already have friends here. Since the standard is also lower for in-state you probably aren't aiming to go to anywhere better than a middle, middle-class career and Berkeley is good at churning those out.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You’ve never made it clear that you spent time in Southern California. The standard for in-state, while not at the level of out-of-state, is still fairly high. It is less comparable to the hardest-to-get into schools, but is still pretty tough. Also, getting admitted is good and all, but what you do while and after here is what matters as far as outcome. The admissions standard doesn’t determine quality of students- you could have attended a cc and then any school and still end up rich and successful. And your conclusion of the person probably not aiming for a good job because the standards for in-state students are lower than out-of-state students does not make logical sense. Sorry. You took phil 100 and did well, you must understand that the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premises.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But for the 15% that are out-of-staters, international students, and those that have big dreams and big talent to back it up, AVOID Berkeley at all costs, especially if you make it into a better school like the top privates, lacs, and other publics (Yes, UVA, UW, UT are all better than Berkeley). You won't regret it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I thought your experience was “subjective,” as you call it. How can you generalize for all of these people? At the very least, I guess you could specify “undergrad” (although you probably think the graduate programs suck too?) Many people with big dreams and big talent, and whatever else, come here, succeed, and do fine. Berkeley isn’t for everybody, and has its problems, and I don’t think everyone should go here or something like that, but it is great for many of the people you describe.</p>

73

<p>Polite Antagonis, you are just a loser. Get a life or just go away from here..please!</p>

74

<p>Polite Antagonis,</p>

<p>Here is your alter ego. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/18_medalist.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/18_medalist.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Another out-of-state Cal senior, but one who maximized the opportunities that Berkeley gave him. How different his experience sounds from yours. How sad that you could not see the possibilities at your college. I hope Columbia works out for you, but I rather doubt that you will be happy there either. And perhaps you will blame Berkeley for that, too. Perhaps Berkeley will be the albatross around your neck for the rest of your life. Pity. Happiness is created, not acquired.</p>

75

<p>While I'm not a Berkeley student yet, I expect I probably will be--and thus turning down prestigious private schools, Ivys included.</p>

<p>My experience with Berkeley has been through being a student at ATDP there (enrichment classes for HS students, basically) and a TA for Biology there. Also, my school is basically a feeder school into Berkeley, with 39 attendees there last year. For better or worse, I have had more experience with Berkeley than some of those 39 attendees even though I'm not in college yet.</p>

<p>While I personally appreciate the efforts of many pro-Berkeley posters here (after all, there's certainly no reason why I would want the school I'm planning to attend slandered), I think that both Polite Antagonis and Sakky both have a point (though Sakky has a more salient one, in my opinion).</p>

<p>I love Berkeley's campus, selection of majors, food, and academics. In fact, I pretty much love everything about it except for two factors. One is the impersonal nature of the school, and second is the quality of the student body.</p>

<p>Those factors are both linked, in my opinion, to the selectivity of the school. Both Sakky and PA's problems with the school can be solved with tighter admissions policies.</p>

<p>Personally, even though I was enamored with so many aspects of Berkeley, the decision to submit my SIR was agonizingly difficult. I care little for prestige, as long as my career prospects after college are roughly comparable at the schools I consider. However, I do care about selectivity. I did not go through high school and pull late-nighters just to end up at the same college that some people who could care less about academics got into as well (less of these than qualified, certainly, but enough to be worrying).</p>

<p>Granted, they didn't get the perks I did going in, like R/C scholar, but you know... they still are in the same school. I can expect this happening rather often, given that some superior OOS candidates are turned away for less able in-state candidates, along with the fact that Berkeley simply takes so many undergraduates (this compounded with relatively easier transfer admissions).</p>

<p>Why does Berkeley have a dismal about 50% yield rate? If that doesn't do it for you, why is it that out of the R/C scholars that my school got (I know of at least 6), I'm the only one who's planning to attend Berkeley?
They feel the same way I do, but have no previous affection for Berkeley.</p>

<p>Selectivity.</p>

<p>The reason why Berkeley needs so many weeder classes and pure hell in transfering is because it has so many sub-par applicants--and while having those applicants still maintain an elite school status.
If they didn't have as much dead weight, freely allowing transfer of majors and less murderous grading schemes would hardly be as infeasible.</p>

<p>Also, while I would generally tend to disagree with PA's characterization of Berkeley students, he does highlight a good percentage of the student population. Yes, there are plenty of bright people who are interesting to be around. However, there are just as many morons out there who are entirely anti-social and anti-intellectual.</p>

<p>I've gone out and defended Berkeley in a generally hostile forum, outside of this particular board. I have to admit that the perception of Berkeley in CC in general is far lower than it is in the general public and most Berkeley students/alumni.
However... selectivity, selectivity, selectivity... it cannot be ignored that there are problems keeping Berkeley from giving HYP a run for their money that are as easily solved as chopping away the size of the UG class, and thus offering more incentive for top students to go to Berkeley rather than another institution. (BTW, I don't see in-state as a problem, considering how large a percentage of admits in elite colleges are from CA anyway)</p>

76

<p>I have two comments about your post. 1) Berkeley's yield rate is quite high relative to most schools in the US, and while it'd be nice if it went up, is quite high, really. 2) You don't really explain the connection between the fairly impersonaly nature of Berkeley and selectivity. Could you elaborate there?</p>

77

<p>Looking back on my own post, the language I used was a bit extreme.</p>

<p>However, what I meant about the fairly impersonal nature of Berkeley and selectivity was simply too few resources for too many students, some of them which aren't suited for the academic rigor. </p>

<p>The reasons why there is so little aid for students has been said to be because 1) resource stretch and 2) Berkeley wants to get rid of quite a few of its students, and the best way to seperate the "good" from the "bad" is to toss them into the ocean to swim.</p>

<p>This is making the assumption that the oft mentioned weeding is a goal of the university, but a fair one to make, considering the actions of the university.</p>

<p>Berkeley's yield rate is high compared to most schools, but not compared to many of the elite schools that it should be measuring up to.</p>

<p>Again, looking back at my post, I did make the problems seem more extreme than they are.</p>

78

<p>For the article, notice how everything he did was independent of the student body. Indeed, he could've done all of the things he did at ANY OTHER SCHOOL. </p>

<p>Let's drive the point home, Berkeley really doesn't offer any extra opportunities versus other schools. The only thing it offers that are exclusive to any other schools are its faculty, which I admit is excellent if you can ever get in touch with them, and its student body which has huge swaths of mediocrity. The EAP program which is mentioned in the article is by no means exclusive to Berkeley and you can travel abroad at any school. I find it ironic that a pro-UCB'er would post about a good student who has hardly any ec's on campus.</p>

<p>And notice how it shows him as taking classes for pass/not pass as well. As it's been shown before, getting a good grade is not really about intelligence, it's about gaming your gpa up and taking light loads with pass/not pass classes.</p>

<p>And the pro-ucb'ers can make all the assumptions they want about me, I do many things off campus that it lists that guy doing. There's nothing great about Berkeley that you can't do elsewhere.</p>

<p>Indeed, the article in no way disproves my point there is no reason to go to Berkeley when you hardly have access to faculty and the student body is so mediocre.</p>

79

<p>from my experience at Berkeley, the faculty was very accesible and the student body was very impressive. Then again, i can only talk on behalf of chemistry/MCB students.</p>

80

<p>Well, to give a proper context, I mean from the view of getting the kind of relationships that will really engage your intellect and the professors-things such as a long-term research project or real mentoring through a thesis. The same problem is analogous to the social situation; most Cal people will be fine if all you want to do is party, but if you want to develop the kind of lasting friendships you would from having say a consistent dorm setting, then Cal will surely disappoint as well. The same is true for the extracurriculars as well; most students just want to pad their resume and will be your best friend for 5 minutes until they decide they don't need you anymore or that you actually expect them to do some work.</p>

<p>And for the part about Berkeley's reputation being on CC being worst than it is in the general population I would point to institutional lag. During the 60's Berkeley was up there with Harvard and Yale, even at the undergraduate level. That is no longer the case, and has been especially aggravated by California's budget crisis where many cuts were directed largely at the undergraduate population.</p>