<p>Hi, I have heard that Berkeley's academic atmosphere is extremely intense and that a lot of people spend all their time studying. I know UVa has a great academics and I'm certainly prepared and willing to work hard, but I also want to party and see other buildings besides the library. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thank you.</p>
<p>Berkeley IS hard, that's why it's ranked as the #1 public university in the world. </p>
<p>The myth that Cal has no social life, however, is simply that: a myth. </p>
<p>At any school you go to, you can work really hard, and have fun, or you can try to get a 4.0 by doing nothing but school.</p>
<p>So it really boiles down to how you want to carry yourself throughout college.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info.</p>
<p>I honestly believe anybody capable of getting into either school is capable of having a good time while still getting good grades (although maybe not if your goal is a 4.0).</p>
<p>At the undergraduate level, both Berkeley and UVa are equal academically. I think the biggest difference is the student-teacher interaction. From what I've heard, I think it's better at UVa, where professors are a lot more accessible, and the student body is a lot smaller. (UVa: 13,000 / UC Berkeley: 23,000). Also, while both schools have had to deal with budget cuts recently, UVa is better positioned financially to handle it - from maintaining the classes being offered to hiring new professors to ensuring better student financial aid. Recently, Berkeley has been trying to raise a billion dollars in order to keep its professorial staff from being raided by the Ivies. Also, it doesn't have as complete a financial aid program as UVa has with Access UVA. For example, UVa allows low-income students (even from out of state) to essentially attend for free. Berkeley cannot offer that to all its low-income students. Plus, UVa caps the amount of debt middle income students will have as well. Again, something Berkeley cannot do.</p>
<p>All of these factors can be judged partially by looking at the 4 year graduation rates of both schools. 54% of Berkeley students graduate in 4 year's time while 84% of UVa students graduate in 4 years. That UVa figure jumps up to 93% at 6 years. Any time you have a low graduation rate, you have to ask:</p>
<p>Are students able to get into the classes that allow them to graduate on time?
Are there enough classes for students in each major to fulfill their graduation requirements?
Are students able to get financial aid to afford to attend an institution?
Are students getting the proper advising and mentoring to be able to navigate the school and graduate on time?</p>
<p>One last note, you can definitely do well academically at UVa and party hard. UVa is like a party school for nerds...and I mean nerds in the most positive and fabulous way possible.</p>
<p>Globalist: As someone very familiar with the UC system, and Cal in particular, I have to correct you on a few things:</p>
<p>1) I never understand why people make such a huge deal out of the student/faculty ratio. Cal is a bigger school, so it hires more faculty. It's not like you will have 500 kids in your intro to bio class at Cal, but only 50 at UVa. This is one common misconception people make about Cal and Stanford as well. Intro classes are intro classes. My brother is a junior at Cal and most of his classes are around 20 people or so.</p>
<p>2) If you need financial assistance, Cal will get it for you. That's why everyone in the middle class at most schools don't get great FA; it goes to those who are in deep financial need.</p>
<p>3) If you are on top of you studies, graduating in 4 years won't be a problem no matter where you go. Again, in my brother's case, he is on track to graduate in 3.5 semesters with a DOUBLE major in English and Poli Sci. And no, it's not because of AP credits; in fact, few actually went towards that. The people I know at Cal/UCLA who don't graduate in 4 years either do so bc they change their major several times, or bc they aren't keeping track of the courses they need to take. Otherwise, you can manage it.</p>
<p>But I think the focus should be on the atmosphere and location. They are just two very, very different institutions. One is not "better" than the other, they just have different teaching and lifestyles. The academic rigor, for the most part, will not differ greatly between any top-25 school.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to say that UC Berkeley is a horrible place. It's an exciting school, and I'm sure your brother loves it there. But I do think looking at graduate rates are important because if 46% aren't finishing school in 4 years, that says a lot about a school. </p>
<p>Also, I wasn't referring to intro classes. I was talking about overall student-teacher interaction. UVa professors are known for meeting their students after class, going for coffee, inviting students out to dinner, etc. Of course, you would have to reach out to the professors to make that happen, but one of UVA's reputations is having strong relationships between professors and students. That was the idea behind Jefferson building the Lawn where students and professors would live and learn in close proximity. While that's not the case now where they live next to each other, maintaining that type of relationship is still of utmost importance at UVa. I'm sure this also happens at Berkeley as well, but from what I've read it's not as prevalent as it is at UVa.</p>
<p>I agree atmosphere and location should also be focused on as well.</p>
<p>I wouldn't base your decision on your perception of the academic rigor at either school. Both are strong and place very similar numbers of students in top jobs and graduate schools. I would be concerned about graduation rates, as globalist mentioned.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the help guys, but it looks like I will be attending UVa next fall.</p>
<p>Globalist: haha I was just thinkin about you! I was searching through last year's US NWR mag on colleges, to see the differences in cost, etc. of some of the schools I'm considering.</p>
<p>Cal actually had a higher % of class sizes under 20 than UVa. In fact, out of Michigan, UCLA, Cal, and UVa, UVa had the worst %, which honestly I was surprised about.</p>
<p>I think at any school, prof. relationships, like academic rigor, is what you make of it. You could go to a big school, like Cal, never meet your professor, major in general studies, and not work hard at all. Or, you could talk to your prof. every day and major in chemical engineering, and work your butt off. Usually though this is true with any school, not just UVa or Cal.</p>
<p>College is what you make of it. If you wish to graduate if 4 years, it WILL be done whether you go to Cal or Princeton, so long as you're willing to work for it.</p>
<p>And congrats on UVa OP, I envy your final-decision-status lol. best of luck!</p>
<p>I think you're simplifying things too much. </p>
<p>
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College is what you make of it. If you wish to graduate if 4 years, it WILL be done whether you go to Cal or Princeton, so long as you're willing to work for it.
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</p>
<p>I'm sure this is mostly true, but the onus lies not only with the students but also with the institutions. I don't believe most people who don't graduate in 4 years want to extend their stay in college and continue paying tuition, etc. for another year or 2. A school may be cheaper to attend per year, but is it really cheaper in the long run if you need to pay for another year or 2 of college in order to get a degree?</p>
<p>I think we're looking at the issues from 2 vantage points - like looking at the trees vs. the forest. Yes, UVa may have less classes under 20 than some other schools (but not by much. A lot of UVa classes have 25 students), but there are other questions that need to be asked. For example, how about the number of classes being offered in a major or a department? Sure, Berkeley may have smaller classes, but if a large portion of the school isn't graduating on time, perhaps those classes should be larger to accommodate student need? Or perhaps there should just be more of those classes, but are there enough professors to offer more classes? If Berkeley is seriously worried about professors being stolen by other schools, I would think there aren't enough.</p>
<p>Whatever the case, again UVa students overwhelmingly graduate in 4 years. (Among African Americans, UVa has the highest graduation rate among all public schools, which is 20 points higher than the next flagship university.) So, what is UVa doing to ensure this? I believe its the combination of great interaction between the professors and administration with the students to help them navigate the system, a strong financial aid program, and the ability for the school to provide for the academic needs of its students.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to say you won't get a great education at UC Berkeley, because I know you will. I just think these are important issues to look at when comparing schools.</p>
<p>Oh, I almost forgot. Cofaloaf, welcome to the family!</p>
<p>Just a heads up that student:teacher ratios and class size statistics can be a little misleading. I think using them along with the statistic for percentage of classes taught by TAs would give you a better picture.</p>
<p>Congrats, loaf!</p>
<p>^^agreed.</p>
<p>globalist: I understand your perspective, I was just trying to point out that many times, the blame goes to the school, when in fact the individual ultimately controls their own destiny to a large extent.</p>
<p>But either way, UVa and UCB are both renowned institutions, again I think the main difference is simply in the atmospheres, student body, and location.</p>
<p>And ditto the congrats to cofaloaf!!! Go hoos!</p>