<p>According to one ivy leaguer graduate, her fellow students are the best and the brightest, but not the nicest because of the Darwinian college selection process.</p>
<p>thats an interesting article but it seems that she is implying that everyone who is successful is mean liar. I know she means only a few but her wording makes it sound as if they are all liars</p>
<p>In my extensive observations through sitting under the table in Sinners Alley, I have noticed that , that which bother us most about others, are usually the qualities that we try to ignore in ourselves.</p>
<p>She does have some valid points- be an interesting topic for debate.</p>
<p>I have been around ivy kids for a long time, and they are of all types. It is like any other group of people, nice ones, not nice one etc. You may have a slight bias upwards on agressive, self assured, type-a's who can give the wrong impression -- until you get to know them. No human institutions are wonderfully perfect. And, I can assure you that the opposite, institutions with the least best and brightest do not fair any better.</p>
<p>That article is nonsense.</p>
<p>
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The kind of "nice" that involves sharing notes with a student who is sick or lending a textbook to a friend who doesn't have one.
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Hmmm.... I think I agree with EK:<br>
[quote]
I have noticed that , that which bother us most about others, are usually the qualities that we try to ignore in ourselves.
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Students I know share notes and textbooks (S is splitting the cost of textbooks for one course with a friend); they read one another's papers before turning them in, they get together in study groups. When one is unwell, they visit him/her. I can't believe this does not/did not happen at Princeton.</p>
<p>Wasn't there a thread already opened on this article recently in PF?</p>
<p>"I'm not saying different. I'm saying that sometimes some of these students will denounce world hunger but be unfriendly to the homeless. They will debate environmental policy but never offer to take out the trash. They will believe vehemently in many causes but roll their eyes when reminded to be humble, to be generous and to "do what is right.""</p>
<p>You can find people like that and their opposites wherever you go. She has a very naive viewpoint.</p>
<p>ah, the joys of generalizing and stereotyping!</p>
<p>Reminds me of driving in Cambridge, MA in the eighties when a Volvo wagon covered with bumper stickers "No nukes, save the whales, make love not war, peace on earth, etc", cut me off in traffic as the driver flipped me the finger!</p>
<p>One must maintain a sense of humor, always!</p>
<p>I don't know why the observations made in this article surprise anyone, or are even noteworthy! Most of the top tier colleges desire students who have been heavily involved in activities requiring "leadership". The qualities required for a HS student to aspire and achieve in those settings are inborn. It does require a bit of the "dog eat dog" competitive mentality to rise above your classmates. The top tier colleges select for these types. These are not the "nice" kids, they are the kids who know what they want and how to get it. Do they do nice things? If it helps them get ahead. Who is to say if that is right or wrong. </p>
<p>I, too, have observed in my admittedly small sample size life that the kids who will be or who do attend Ivy League colleges are NOT the ones who are "nice" as defined by the article's author. They are the ones who know how to "do good" in high profile circumstances. They are definitely among the most socially sophisticated, savvy, and arrogant. Getting to the Ivy League has required that a fair number of toes be stepped on, but it's done in a subtle and covert way. That is what it takes to get the positions of leadership that those colleges want to see. Kids with those skills are the ones who rise to the top. Early on in HS, the talented, compassionate but noncompetitive kids are marginalized and minimized to make way for the superstars. It's the way life has always been, and probably always will be! To believe otherwise is naive. </p>
<p>Does that mean there is no place for the brilliant and truly "nice" kids? Of course not! They are just not to be found in abundance in the Ivy League colleges since that is not what those colleges are looking for.</p>
<p>"They are definitely among the most socially sophisticated, savvy, and arrogant. Getting to the Ivy League has required that a fair number of toes be stepped on, but it's done in a subtle and covert way. That is what it takes to get the positions of leadership that those colleges want to see. Kids with those skills are the ones who rise to the top. Early on in HS, the talented, compassionate but noncompetitive kids are marginalized and minimized to make way for the superstars. It's the way life has always been, and probably always will be! To believe otherwise is naive."</p>
<p>To believe <em>this</em> ^^ shows a lack of exposure to a variety of Ivy acceptees. Yes, you have a small sample size & are generalizing inaccurately. There is no authority to your statement. I probably have far more counter-anecdotes to publish than your "small sample." Mine are based on current Ivy acceptees, all of whom are people of fine character and Nice with a capital N. </p>
<p>You also have a lot of stereotypes about "leadership," -- how it's defined, which elements of leadership are valued by Elite colleges, etc. Leadership does not mean stepping on people on your way to the top. (Leadership is not power-tripping or arrogance; nor does it necessarily produce either trait, if it is true leadership, which creates & depends on cooperation.)</p>
<p>"They will debate environmental policy but never offer to take out the trash."</p>
<p>Since when did <em>any</em> 18-year-old offer to take out the trash? :D</p>
<p>"They are just not to be found in abundance in the Ivy League colleges since that is not what those colleges are looking for."</p>
<p>You absolutely do not know what you're talking about.</p>
<p>We already did this thread.</p>
<p>epiphany: I'll modify my conclusion to read: "They are just not to be found in abundance in the Ivy League colleges since that is not what those colleges SEEM to be looking for, based on my limited experience." </p>
<p>Sorry if my opinion came off sounding like fact.</p>
<p>Amongst the 6 or so Ivy acceptees in my S's class is one kid who fits jnsq's description to an absolute T, and a couple more who are definitely on that continuum. They all have a lot of drive to "succeed." Then there's my kid...:)....he's the cuckoo in the nest, I think.</p>
<p>I don't mean that he is an altruist, or that he doesn't want to be successful, but his innate independence makes him unwilling to play the game the way you need to in order to be amongst The Annointed in high school...or at least at our high school.</p>
<p>I find this assertion completely ridiculous. The individuals I've encountered in college are WAY nicer than the kids I went to high school with. I've never met so many friendly people before. In high school if I missed class I had to ask to borrow notes from people. In college, I've had many friends come visit me when sick, not only bothering to go grab me my stuff from my room to bring to me at the nurse's office, but also voluntarily just bringing their notes for me to borrow too, without being asked. I've had MANY friends lend me their textbooks. Heck, I knew a girl who, upon learning that I did not have a hat for the snow, pluck the one she was wearing off her head and put it on mine, declaring it an impromptu gift.</p>
<p>I agree with epiphany. Leadership as defined by top colleges does not entail stepping over other people to get to the top. It does not have to mean to be president of the student council. It often means true excellence such as can be displayed by musicians, actors, painters, medalists in olympiads (I know of no underhand activity involved in these "competitions." </p>
<p>Sounds like the author of the article thinks that college is like high school, full of mean girls. That's not been my experience or the experience of my kids.</p>
<p>Add me to the list of those disagreeing with the notion that the top colleges, or Ivy League colleges in particular, are attracting non-nice students or, more ridiculously, are looking for non-nice students. My D has been amazed at how kind her classmates are. Yes, offering and sharing notes, books, study materials, time to help each other. Yes, checking on sick friends. Are there some not nice people roaming the halls of the Ivy League? I'm sure there are, but I'm not at all convinced that they are there in any greater proportion than at other institutions.</p>