<p>No, of course I do not take it personally, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion right :)?, but I'm just curious ... really curious, since I found that MIT environment is no better (it's slightly worse as a matter of fact) than Caltech. But you seem very opiniated about the 'ugly' environment in Caltech, such that you would rather group CIT with Cal rather than HYPSM despite the fact that Caltech shares much more similar applicant pool with HYPSM than with Cal. Would you mind telling me what your friends say about the actual environment?</p>
<p>Oh, Rtksyg, I do not group CalTech with Cal rather than HPSY and M because of environment. That was your criteria. If environment were the only criteria I looked at, Yale and MIT would not make my top 5 list. </p>
<p>CalTech is lumped together with Cal because in its entirety, I do not feel it is one of the top 5 universities in the country. Someone else also misunderstood my groupings. They have nothing to do with one or two factors and everything to do with the university as a whole. I group entire universities, not departments or environments or students. </p>
<p>I believe that H,P,S,Y and M are more versatile and complete than CalTech. Cal is also more complete, but as you pointed out, Cal does not have the same quality student body or the same resources available to its students that H,P,S,Y and M have. But how can you lump CalTech with H,P,S,Y and M when its students aren't appreciably better, its resources aren't more abundant, it doesn't have nearly as many top departments, and its students aren't as well rounded etc...? The only way in which CalTech is equal to the Big 5 is in that their students are highly academically accomplished. But they aren't as well rounded. The only reason MIT makes the top 5 is because at least MIT has top Economics, Linguistics, Political Science, Psychology, Philosophy and Business programs.</p>
<p>The main complaint about CalTech I got from my friends was that they did not enjoy living the undergraduate lifestyle. They had very limited opportunities to relax, reflect, date, mingle socially, meet people with differen intellectual and academic interests etc... But like I always say, they felt the education they go was the best...and I believe them. They love CalTech and give back to their school. I am in no way insulting CalTech. But CalTech is stuck in a Catch-22. If they lighten the load, their students would enjoy their undergraduate experience but they would not receive the same unequalled education. Everything comes at a price.</p>
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<p>Well, what I said didn't really capture the whole picture. I am a city boy and Chicago >> Ann Arbor. ;)</p>
<p>Hmm, Alexandre, I have no right to question your own opinion. Just let the discussion flows freely without any heat :). </p>
<p>Actually, in terms of pure academic accomplishment, Caltech students are better than Stanford or Yale, but they aren't so well-rounded as you said; nevertheless they're 'smarter' academically, as you know that being good at sport and leadership would get you the door to Stanford but not Caltech. Now, as you said, people should have anticipated the school they're going to enroll. If Cal students should have expected that Cal classes are huge. Caltech students should have anticipated that Caltech has nothing to offer but science/engineering. In fact, There is virtually no humanity major (except economy, which is limited to abt 8 students) in Caltech. So in your eyes, being more well-rounded should command higher prestige than being stronger in certain fields?</p>
<p>Sam Lee, I love big cities too. Paris is my favorite city on Earth, closely followed by Montreal and Chicago. But I loved Ann Arbor. And chicago was always availlable via train. Anyway, like I said, you cannot go wrong with Northwestern. Awesome school.</p>
<p>Rtksyg, I do not believe in the word prestige. Reputation, I do not mind, prestige means nothing to me. I would pick a BNW or a Mercedes over a Bentley or a Rolls Royce any day! LOL</p>
<p>Seriously though, I think a university has to be strong in individual departments and accross to board to be excellent. CalTech is an exception because of its incredibly gifted student body, amazing faculty, practically unlimited resources and its being arguably #1 in the sciences. But if you look at my groupings, very few universities aren't strong accross multiple disciplines.</p>
<p>And my friends who went to CalTech knew exactly what to expect when they went to there. Our school sends 1-2 students to CalTech annually, so CalTech was well known to them. But as they reflect back on their experience, they have many regrets.</p>
<p>But why do you rank Cal above let's say Cornell or Duke?</p>
<p>I rank Cal over Cornell and Duke because Cal has a better faculty, better individual department and its student body is pretty much as gifted.</p>
<p>But on the average, Cal students are not as good as Cornell students except the outstaters. I don't know if Dartmouth has graduate study or not, but with your paradigm, Dartmouth can't be ranked in the same group as Cornell and Duke right?</p>
<p>Not really. Cal students have higher class ranks, higher unweighed GPAs and their SATs scores are merely 30 points lower than Cornell's and 60 points lower than Duke's. I personally do not think SAT scores alone mean that much. I probably beat you on the SAT and I can assure you that I am not CalTech material! LOL Besdies, a difference of 20-100 points is negligible if you ask me. Some schools deemphasize the SATs. </p>
<p>I would say cal has an equal student body to Duke and Cornell, but its faculty is better and Cal is far better than either in most disciplines.</p>
<p>As for Dartmouth, I always struggle with where to place them. Sometimes I do not even group it with Research universities, but rather, with LACs. So I admit that Dartmouth is hard to classify. Brown too...but to a lesser degree.</p>
<p>you're shot, gotcha !!! thx for the replies hehehe :)</p>
<p>Here are two international rankings to compare with USNews. They are not even trying to rank the undergraduate experience, but instead the overall quality of the university, based on things like (international) peer-rated prestige and research. </p>
<p>Rankings from the London Times:
1. Harvard
2. Berkeley
3. MIT
4. Caltech
5. Oxford
6. Cambridge
7. Stanford
8. Yale
9. Princeton
10. ETH Zurich</p>
<p>Rankings from Beijing University <a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm:">http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm:</a>
1. Harvard
2. Stanford
3. Cambridge
4. Berkeley
5. MIT
6. Caltech
7. Princeton
8. Oxford
9. Columbia
10. Chicago</p>
<p>I don't think these rankings are any better than the US News rankings, but on the other hand, I don't think they are any worse. That they differ so much from the "gospel" (and form each other) shows how arbitrary those rankings really are. No matter how much people dismiss the US News rankings, they still have massive influence, and most college applicants would not think it even possible that Berkeley has more international prestige than Princeton.</p>
<p>BTW, in case this wasn't clear, "international" includes the United States</p>
<p>Is Northwestern 'in' Chicago?</p>
<p>The undergrad campus (including business school) is not- it's in Evanston to the north, but the law and medical schools are in the city.</p>
<p>Just think to yourself. Would you rather go to Berkeley than MIT? I doubt it.</p>
<p>uc_benz, I would rather go to Berkeley than MIT! Now what? UC Berkeley is arguably the better school. Berkeley is just about as good as MIT in the sciences and it beats MIT in most other subjects. Dont get me wrong, you cant get much better than MIT. I actually like MIT a lot. Besides, whether anyone likes it or not, MIT demands respect. The thing is that I have read some of your posts and they just ooze with ignorance. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Berkeley is one of the best schools in the world? Just because YOU dont like Cal doesnt mean that it is any less incredible. Just because YOU dont like UCB does not mean that many many people dont recognize it as the great school that it is. For your own good, you should do some research before you post things in a public forum.</p>
<p>I can't say I'd go to Berkeley over MIT, because like Harvard, it has a name that is unbeatable, however, I agree that Berkeley is better than MIT in many fields. Moreover, if Berkeley were private and had half its undergrad population, I believe that it would be ranked in the top 5.</p>
<p>Kk19131, thats cool! You are entitled to your own opinion and preferences. I have absolutely no problem with what you said. I have my preferences as well. In fact, if someone says that they believe MIT is greater than Berkeley I still dont have a problem with that because it is actually a close call. I probably wouldnt argue because both schools are so freaken great that some people may think that one is better than the other. What bugs is when someone denies that it is even close. Or when someone implies that it is some sort of common knowledge that Berkeley is a second rate university. See, at least you seem to understand Berkeleys relative strengths. Some people just say, Oh, Berkeley is a public school so it is bad, or Oh, Berkeley is not on the East Coast so it is a terrible school. These people obviously know little about the school or schools in general for that matter. Comments like this can not be substantiated. They have no merit.</p>
<p>MIT is far greater than Berkeley. Come on now, it's common sense. If a person was admitted to both Berkeley and MIT, odds are that he will choose to go to MIT. Aside from prestige and academic reputation, which MIT completely dominates Berkeley in, it's also patently obvious that MIT students are measurably stronger than Berkeley students. You never hear about a person with an 800 SAT score getting into MIT. Yet that happens all the time with Berkeley. Also, Berkeley accepts many community college students who failed in high school. This may be a good act of compassion, which I may personally admire, but it still dilutes the quality of the student body. Compared to MIT, Berkeley admissions is an open door. </p>
<p>I will concede that Berkeley is a graduate school powerhouse that is on equal footing with MIT. But in terms of undergraduate education, it's not even close.</p>
<p>"I will concede that Berkeley is a graduate school powerhouse that is on equal footing with MIT."
-My point.</p>
<p>ubermensch: what college do you attend?</p>