Where is your evidence that these people are being weeded out- and especially being weeded out in favor of inferior doctors? Surely you have more evidence than your one experience with a young doctor. Especially since you’re up against increasing average MCAT scores and numerous studies showing the importance of communication and teamwork in medical practice. Eg you know surgeons don’t operate by themselves, right? They are essentially team captain/coach during an operation.
I can assure you that that training does continue through medical school but you have to demonstrate a willingness to learn it before medical school or else you’re not going to be receptive to said training.
Also introversion has nothing to do with this. You can be an introvert and compassionate/observant of people. I know many introverted medical students and young physicians who would be offended by your suggestion that they can’t exhibit this attentiveness and culture awareness in their clinical encounters.
“Why not simply admit the smartest applicants, then train them to have empathy, cultural sensitivity, good ethics and bedside manners as part of their medical school training?”
Because if a person has reached their 20’s and they can’t empathize with the struggles of others, they are insensitive to people of different cultural backgrounds than theirs, they don’t have much of a moral compass, and they can’t interact well with other people, It is doubtful they will gain these attributes by studying powerpoint presentations on these topics in medical school.
I agree about the coming with age and experience, and changing with age and experience. But shouldn’t by age 24 (mean age for matriculants) an applicant be able to offer some evidence on an application as to social skills, cultural sensitivity….that shows that they’ve done something else besides lock themselves in a room, study, take tests, fill out applications, and play beer pong/video games?
Personally I’d rather they be competent than brilliant, but that’s me. As to “cure me” I recognize cures are not a guaranteed outcome even with smartest MDs
How do you determine “smartest applicants”?
MCAT scores: does it matter if an applicant’s parents could pay 2K+ for MCAT prep?
College attended: are smart kids only at Ivies? Maybe we should use highly reliable top 50 US News and World Reports list as sole basis for determining smartness?
GPAs in premed reqs:does an applicant who has done well in these courses assure his/her smartness?
“As to training train them to have empathy, cultural sensitivity, good ethics and bedside manners as part of their medical school training”
That’s a great idea. When you’re hoping they cure you which med school courses would you eliminate from their training to provide time to train students in empathy, cultural sensitivity…?? Gross anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, pathology? Maybe elimination of some third year clerkships such as Surgery, Internal Medicine perhaps?
“kids have to run themselves ragged in college (after doing that in high school)”
OMG, the poor babies! Shame, shame on med schools for not relying on an applicant’s high school years and expecting them to do more as an adult in college.
How exactly does “leadership skill” help make them better doctors?
Doctors are the team leaders. The nurses, techs, etc are the other team members providing the info (eg lab results), to help not only with diagnosis, but also to carry out treatment plan. Someone has to be in charge (lead) and be able to communicate and direct other team members So I’d say leadership is an important quality for an MD.
Okay I concede that my thought about German efficiency was off in post 18, but my thought about saying it with a German accent was funny, yeah?
I too remember those halcyon days when medical school was the last place where meritocracy reigned. It was a glorious, simpler time, when all physicians were male and white and many, many were the sons(not, heaven forbid, daughters) of physicians(male physicians, that is). Except for the few HB medical schools(total of three, I think), no need for people of color to apply-nor any women, either. Yep, a real meritocracy, where admissions basically eliminated over 50% of the population from consideration for admission before even reading any applications.
Without knowing specifics at each UG closely, the statistics does not mean anything as it skips some important input like not having your pre-med committee support if they feel that your stats are not up to the task.
The best is to go to college that fits you the best which should be determined by using YOUR OWN CRITERIA. This college could be any UG, completely unknown and low ranked. And then, do your best there, academically and otherwise. Your accomplishments at ANY UG will determine your future, not the UG itself. It has been repeated many times, but I guess, the statistics on internet still sounds very entertaining for some. That is fine, just keep in mind that it is more of entertainment than anything that you should seriously keep in mind in order to achieve your goal.
You want to be a driver of your own destiny, rely on yourself, the name of college will not help you.
All i know is my son graduated from cornell may 2015…had a 3.5 gpa and 35 mcat …lots of great ec’s…absolutely no interviews and its already December 2015. To say the least we feel it was a total waste going to and spending a small fortune on a ivy league school. He is now considering applying to DO schools. He is pretty devastated. …oh btw…we are not talking about high level med schools. …these are mid tier at best.
I know it provides no comfort but in 3 previous application cycles: 2013-2014, 2014-2015, 2015-2016, 57.2%, 58.6%, and 60.8% respectively of all applicants failed to matriculate. Your S in part is just running into increasing numbers of competitive applicants. In most current reported cycle 2015-2016 median MCAT scores for matriculants was 31.4 with cGPA 3.70. So although S’s MCAT is very strong, cGPA appears less competitive. Random thought: when did S take MCAT, will score be valid next cycle??
I suspect a degree from Cornell is quite an ego boost and then not getting into med school is quite the ego deflator. But although not of zero importance, a degree from an Ivy does not guarantee anyone a med school acceptance. All I’d say is S should become wedded to mantra that ALL (even “low tier”) US SCHOOLS ARE GOOD SCHOOLS. A MD degree from any one can be springboard to whatever area of medicine he wants to pursue. So if this cycle turns into total bust and S decides to try again, S should work on improving ECs and not just number of hours. This will be especially important if he reapplies to schools that have rejected him as reapplicants will get heightened scrutiny to see what he’s being doing since being rejected. Perhaps, if S believes he received strong LORs, he might consider staying in touch with LOR writers again thanking them but letting them know that he didn’t get accepted but that he plans to reapply, come back stronger next cycle, and will be doing ……. to improve his app. The idea is that staying in touch could help LOR writers freshen up their LORs next year. At some point he may want to review/rewrite PS. Certainly DO option should be on table. Good luck to S and you.
In your last post to this site, you were asking people to chance your son for NYC med schools. I’m not surprised he wasn’t admitted to any of them–simply because the number of applicants to NYC med schools are enormous and the number of seats are quite limited. His GPA is below the median at NYC schools which makes an admit even more problematic, even with a strong MCAT. (Med schools are extremely cautious about individuals MCAT-GPA mismatches because it indicates potential problems with work ethic/attitudes.)
Med school application is a humbling process for nearly everyone. And it can be especially painfully for someone who previously experienced success in all their endeavors.
If your son truly feels called to medicine, he needs to start preparing for a second round of applications–to both MD and DO programs.
Some suggestions:
Have the pre-med office at his college review his application portfolio for any weaknesses. Ask for suggestions on how to improve for the next cycle.
Continue clinical & non-clinical volunteering. (Med schools want evidence of continued participation/altruism.)
Arrange to shadow a DO if he plans to apply to DO programs since many require a LOR from an actively practicing DO.
If, by spring, he still has no IIs, he should contact his target schools/in-state publics and ask if they will provide feedback on his application. Most schools won’t, but he may get some important advice from those that will.
Expand his list of schools applied to. Using MSAR, find schools where his stats (MCAT & GPA) are in the top quartile and where his ECs and personal statement/goals are a good match for the mission of the school. Apply broadly to DO programs.
That 60.8% number isn’t really appropriate for someone with a known GPA/MCAT. That being said, it’s still nearly 40% of white people with GPA/MCAT of 3.4-3.59/33-35 that are rejected from every school they apply to.
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All i know is my son graduated from cornell may 2015…had a 3.5 gpa and 35 mcat …lots of great ec’s…absolutely no interviews and its already December 2015. To say the least we feel it was a total waste going to and spending a small fortune on a ivy league school. He is now considering applying to DO schools. He is pretty devastated. …oh btw…we are not talking about high level med schools. …these are mid tier at best.
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@RichNY
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@Jugulator20
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know it provides no comfort but in 3 previous application cycles: 2013-2014, 2014-2015, 2015-2016, 57.2%, 58.6%, and 60.8% respectively of all applicants failed to matriculate.
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While the above stats may be true, many of those unsuccessful applicants didn’t have med school worthy stats to begin with or had some other serious flaw in their apps.
The sad reality in RichNY’s case is that a 3.5 for a traditional unhooked applicant can be an app killer. Last year, another parent saw the same “no interview” results when their Top 5 school child applied with a 3.5 as well.
RichNY Why did your son not apply after junior year? Did he have some GPA repair to do? What schools were on his app list? Did he apply to all the NY publics and other NY SOMs?. I understand your son’s devastation and your frustration after paying so much for Cornell.
I hope that those HS students reading this thread who think that a top name school will push their tushes into med school consider how a top school may mean a GPA hit.
NYC med schools could be harder to get in with the stats you posted. It has nothing to do with Cornel (i.e., it would be about the same if graduated from another Ivy.) I happen to know a case: A student with the stats similar to what you posted (and also from NY state) was struggling in getting an interview invite, and being from HYPS could not help him when the stats are around that range (unless being an URM. This applicant was an ORM so the odds could be slightly worse.) Toward the end of his application cycle, he did get into one of “less well-known”, remotely-located state med school in NY state. Getting into a med school could be much harder if you come from some state than coming from another state. It is not a “fair” game. I think he may still have some chance if not this application cycle, then the next cycle. Wish your loved one a good luck.
Isn’t NY residency much better than CA in this case when one can fall back on a state school? I guess big names like Princeton, Cornell or JHU won’t save you when GPA dips under 3.6? I heard even with big names UG, “ORMs” still need to pull 3.7+ GPA if you want to shoot for well known med schools.
NY state residency is better than CA but that’s not saying much since the NY medical schools don’t have particularly strong in state biases like the southern or midwestern states. CA’s bias is stronger than NY’s but the number of students is much higher and the caliber of the public medical schools are better so more people want them.
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It has nothing to do with Cornel (i.e., it would be about the same if graduated from another Ivy
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@mcat2 I think he knows that the same result would have happened if he went to another ivy.
I think @richny 's point is that if his son had gone to a mid-tier public or private with lots of merit money, the son would have likely gotten a GPA that was more med-school worthy (maybe a 3.7) and at least one med school admission, AND the family wouldn’t have spent so much.
So, it appears that @RichNY thinks they’re been screwed both ways…paying out $200k…and no med school acceptances.
I understand that frustration.
Much of the premed process and med school app process seem counter-intuitive. When our son was applying to undergrads, many people knew he was going to be premed. Many people didn’t understand why he wasn’t aiming for top schools with his high stats. Many couldn’t understand why he accepted huge merit awards…so big that his undergrad hardly cost us anything (which is ok since med school is costing us a good bit! lol ). Many assumed that top name means med school admission.
If RichNY’s son was accepted to Cornell, and he wanted to be in the NE, then likely he had the stats to get a good bit of merit from, say, Fordham or NEU or BU or a number of very good schools…and possibly he would have graduated with a higher GPA.
I think @mom2collegekids ^^ has a good point there. With an Ivy-grade stats, private university such as St. John’s will give you full tuition merit scholarship, and most likely one can achieve higher GPA considering the lower caliber of pre-med class there and better grading. I’ve heard Princeton and Cornell have pretty harsh grading (very few A’s, class average may get you just B- or C+) in certain science/math courses. Not sure about the higher level course grading at Cornell, @RichNY said last year his son “anticipates a 3.65-3.7 GPA” but that turns into 3.5. Maybe the problem is that he’s not applying widely/appropriately enough? Would a Cornell 3.5 GPA and 35 MCAT get him at least interviews at NY state schools (Stony Brook, Buffalo, SUNY downstate/upstate), Albany?
I would caution everyone about making assumptions about a correlation, let alone causation, between caliber of school and effects on GPA. Schools with known or reported grade inflation or deflation certainly are worth noting, but it’s not so straightforward as to say “Student X got a 3.5 at an Ivy so they would have gotten a 3.8 at this other school full of dumb people”.
What does seem pretty clear is that on the whole, admissions committees do not play such speculative games. There is not an extra admissions boost attached to an Ivy League diploma.
Every single applicant at every stage of the game (undergrad, med school, residency, fellowship) benefits from applying broadly, that’s a fact, and I feel safe in assuming that any talented applicant with a solid resume and no red flags left with no admissions (or unmatched for residency) would have done better with an expanded application strategy. I do feel that one of the traps of the Ivy League students is that they artificially limit themselves to schools that reach a certain level of prestige. For med school admissions implicit peer pressure probably plays a particularly important role when everyone around you is only talking about top 10 ranked med schools.
IMO what people don’t get is that if one is admitted to top UG (eg Stanford) it was on the basis of one’s high school years. So speeding ahead 4 years and then applying to med school, adcoms are not going to open an application, see applicant’s name, address, high school name, and then see Stanford and say wow, we’re done reviewing app, send applicant an II, or forget II, just admit applicant, they attend Stanford. It doesn’t work that way. Adcoms are not going to let someone skate into med school based on their high school glory years. They’re going to look at app with almost entire focus on post high school years. Also you can’t assume that just because one is at say Stanford that they’re performing at same lofty GPA levels as in their high school years. It’s not that they’re doing poorly or barely passing, but half will graduate in the bottom half meaning they won’t have the lofty GPAs of their high school years which will be problematic at med school app time and having Stanford at top of their diploma won’t save them. Adcoms just have too many other overall competitive applicants to choose from even at ”mid/ low” tier med school