Replying to myself, I’d forgotten the laundry list of caveats re: the Annual Report. Nevermind.
Whoa on the LACs. This student wants to major in math and is a top student. She needs to have plenty of upper level and some grad level math courses available. Also check the rankings for math grad schools. If she intends to continue as a grad student in math she will need a very strong math program to both satisfy her intellectual curiosity and to be competitive for the brutal world of math grad school admissions. She will want a good school to be able to perform well on the math GRE-which has a 900 scale to differentiate top students from all over the world.
Of course, like many students she could change her major. She should look at the calculus sequences offered at schools of interest. Some offer only one-size-fits-all, fine for places like U of Chicago but not so for most schools. See what is offered in Honors programs- ie which upper level math courses are offered. My son took a few grad level math courses for his Honors math major at UW-Madison. He also took the Honors sequence in calculus which was theory (not problem) based. She may want to consider theory or applied math routes as an undergrad.
Many overall top/elite colleges are not as good for math majors as some other very good schools. It is not only the cost of the education but what you get for your money. Different schools are strong in different areas. It likely would be more fun to have a larger peer group in math as well.
For those mentioning Fordham, full tuition NMF scholarship is competitive not guaranteed and OP says religious schools are not a good fit.
I will throw in personal experience since I have a daughter at Alabama, which is one of the two schools you specifically mention. Her stats are just slightly below your daughter’s. She might also have similar academic interests, as she is a triple major in Math/Econ/Finance. She has never felt anywhere close to being the smartest kid in the room at Alabama. I’m sure she’s not killing herself, but she works hard. She is surrounded by a lot of extremely accomplished, intelligent and driven students. Most of her friends are in the honors college, simply because she lived in honors housing and participated in a couple honors programs as a freshman, so that’s who she tended to meet. Judging by the wide test score/GPA range at UA, there are plenty of students on campus who do not have stellar stats, but they don’t tend to be in my daughter’s math and upper level econ and finance classes. FWIW, I have relatives who are at Tulane and having excellent academic experiences as well. I think either option could be a good choice for a high stats kid; visit both (or both types of school) and see which your daughter prefers.
OP here.
Thank you all for your comments. This is such a great community! It’s so nice that so many people are willing to help.
Several replies mentioned LAC’s, or suggested particular LAC’s. I know my daughter would love many things about a LAC, including the small class sizes and discussion-based classes. But she is a STEM kid at heart, with her primary passion in math. Of course she can get a good math education at an LAC. But we have been advised that, in general, the math prof’s doing anything new and interesting will tend to be at universities. @wis75’s advice above echoes what we’ve heard.
@bopper summed up our issue succinctly: “The problem you posit is that if you want merit $, you need to be one of the smartest in the room…but you also don’t want to be the smartest in the room.” Yes, exactly!
A number of you were supportive of the option to attend an Honors College at a state university. And nobody had any concerns about that option. That has been the option we’re leaning toward, but I had a niggling doubt that maybe there is a better option. You are all helping me feel confident that this a great path.
So… off to research Honors Colleges! With a head start from all your suggestions.
Thanks again.
One thing that jumped out to us as we were looking at LACs for my daughter was how small some departments were. One school had FIVE math professors and maybe 7 physics professors on the department roster. We could tell it just wouldn’t work for her. She is at a smaller school, about 3500, but it is tech oriented so lots of STEM professors and departments.
I think the ‘small class size’ thing is overrated. My daughter who goes to a bigger school (10,000) has had a few lectures with 200, but they always have much smaller discussion groups, and even with 200, she’s always known a few classmates or people from her dorm or clubs. She also has had classes with only 15 students like Latin. Most of her classes have 25-35 students, just like high school. Ironically in high school standard class size was limited to 25 by law for optimal learning, but honors, AP, and electives could have any number of students. A required PE class could only have 25, but AP Lang could have 40. Most of the students on CC would have been taking the AP class with the unlimited size and not standard English.
Not a reach for admissions, but a reach for their scholars program with very generous merit aid, Northeastern.
Continuing the advice here, I would suggest ASU Barrett Honors. My sister was a Barrett grad in math many years ago and she was able to work on a senior thesis with a prof and got the work published. Also, U of Arizona has a good program. Look into UMD, UMN Twin cities, Penn State , UConn, Stony Brook, UMASS Amherst, UDelaware. Some of these may offer more merit than others. All have well respected math departments with very good grad programs. You can see my other posts regarding pursuing a math degree and career prospects.
I wish I had read this thread a year ago. It would have been very helpful. I guess it is part of the curse of being the firstborn for my daughter. My second kid will benefit from our experience in eight years when it is her turn.
After being rejected by the Ivies she applied to and wait listed at Barnard, my daughter has acceptances from Northeastern, BU and GW. She also always has the option of our local state university, her safety, with the added benefit of her already have completed 48 credits there with a GPA of 3.8. We home schooled, which is how she was able to do so much at the University. And we didn’t have to pay for a good chunk of that so double bonus. I think staying here and being done in less than three years (and debt free) and then applying to an East coast school for grad school would be the smartest choice. But she wants out of the Midwest, so I am think my chances of convincing her are pretty slim. She wants to live on the East Coast (my husbands family all from New York City).
The aid was good for all three, need based and merit but she is still going to come out of school with about thirty thousand of student loan debt. And then there will be more debt for grad or med school (which is what she is thinking she wants now). I guess I am feeling a little shell shocked by the whole process and the idea of that much debt at such a young age.
We have eliminated GW and my husband is going with her in a couple weeks to look at BU and NEU. We are all thinking that Northeastern sounds like a better fit for her. She would start in the biomedical physics major. It looks like they will transfer a lot of her credits from the University here so she should be able to do the four year program. At least I am hopeful, they have transferred credits from the U here in the past. She has no interest in the five year option. She is very a very focused, dtermined, and independent (stubborn) person and does not care about the “typical” college experience. She didn’t care about a typical high school experience either. She wants an urban school and loves Boston. I am hoping that the trip to Boston and seeing her options there will bring her through all the stages of grief she is experiencing over not getting into Columbia or its equivalent in prestige.
Anyway, thanks for reading. It feels good to get it all off my chest.
ETA: Well, crap. I somehow managed to post to the wrong thread, so sorry for hijacking!
@Mommertons - I would still suggest visiting several LACs and check out the the Math depts.(and whatever else may interest your D) before crossing them off your list entirely. Your daughter may prefer the feel of a smaller learning environment(I say this as an engineering Alum of UMass Amherst(large public U) and the mom of a 3rd daughter who be will attending Temple University(a large state U) this fall, as an Honors Student.
My daughters at UR are both in the sciences, my Senior double majoring in Biochemistry and Computer Science and my Sophomore is a Biochemistry Major and is planning to get a Math minor as well. Both girls were able to do research with professors beginning Freshman year, both have attended STEM conferences and presented research multiple times. Double majoring is not unusual at most LACs, and students are known to combine varied pursuits. UR has a highly ranked business school, and it would possible for a student to double major in Economics and Mathematics, for example, or some other combination that might appeal to your daughter. Research opportunities abound and students are guaranteed up to $4K for a summer research or an internship experience for students who are interested.
UR routinely produces Rhodes, Marshall, Goldwater, Clarendon, Truman Scholars each year. In 2015, UR tied for first in the bachelor’s institutions category of universities producing the most Fulbright U.S. Scholars.
My Senior is planning to pursue a PhD and will be applying to graduate programs next year while taking a gap year as a (paid) research fellow at the National Institutes of Health(only 10% of applicants to this post-baccalaureate program are accepted). To say that her STEM education suffered as a result of not being at a big Uni is simply not true. She has had incredible opportunities that she was able to take full advantage of at a small Uni. BTW, UR has 12 full time Math professors, in addition to some visiting, emeritus and guest lecturers.
If you like rankings… http://www.richmond.edu/facts/
I am not trying to bash larger Universities, but I think it is wise to visit a variety of schools to see what feels right. When my daughters sat in on some classes during their visits to UR, they knew it would be a great option for them. D3 was not feeling it at smaller schools we visited, hence her choice to attend Temple. Every kid is different.
Best of luck to your daughter!
OP may be interested in the following document from Swarthmore’s math department on advice for grad school.
http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/academics/math/grad_GRE/MathGradSchool.pdf
In it they mention somewhere that the big league grad departments think that undergrads from LAC’s need too much handholding in grad school. I don’t know if they need that much handholding, but math professors at these top departments have lots of preconceived notions about such things. (full disclosure: I received my Phd. and BS degrees from 2 different Big Flagships)
In the competitive world of math grad school admissions, being able to do math independently is a major criterion (i.e. being able to master real analysis or abstract algebra courses despite a rotten prof who mumbles to the board.) Having graduate level courses also helps.
If grad school is not that much of a focus now, and she wants to explore many other options, she can look into LAC’s. Also, a lot of math majors bail once they hit the proofs courses which are very different from the math courses in high school or freshman undergrad. I would have bailed too if it wasn’t for some decent profs in key courses at Big Flagship. Nowadays, the Big Flagship departments may be less likely to have the mumbling profs teach undergrad courses, but a lot of independence in being able to figure stuff out is still important.
The list below is from the University of Richmond’s website - although I do not know how many students this list represents, or whether they were admitted into PhD programs in Mathematics, or some other major. I am not trying to imply that UR or other LACs are necessarily powerhouses in placing Math students into Math Graduate programs, simply pointing out that there are opportunities for Math majors to explore at UR or other LACs. @Mommertons - when looking around on UR’s list of majors to check out Mathematics, I happened upon the fact that UR has a Mathematical Economics major - not sure if that may interest your D, it may be offered at other schools, too.
Recent Graduate School Admissions
Math majors have, in recent years, been admitted to graduate programs at the following universities:
Brown University
California Institute of Technology
Carnegie Mellon University
Cornell University
Duke University
Harvard University
London School of Economics
MIT
Notre Dame University
Rice University
Stanford University
State University of New York at Stony Brook
University of Chicago
University of Michigan
University of Minnesota
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
University of Pennsylvania
University of Pittsburgh School of Law
University of Virginia
University of Wisconsin
Vanderbilt University
VCU, Medical College of Virginia
Virginia Tech
Mount Holyoke and UMass Amherst are part of the Five College Consortium, so that may provide the combination of a broad range of math courses and LAC experience your daughter seeks.
I would not recommend University of South Carolina. Although the Honors College may be good, students in general are very Greek oriented. (This based on the experience of my daughter, who lived in the Honors dorm her freshman year at USC - although not in the Honors program herself - and who transferred out.)
My other daughter (Wellesley grad) has encountered several Northeastern grads who have done well and continued on to prestigious grad schools. (One in the Ph.D. program at MIT in astronomy, the other accepted into a Ph.D. program in Environmental Science at Berkeley)
Another thought - has she looked into Olin? STEM school with very smart kids.
Just to clarify, I was referring to University of Southern California, not South Carolina, in my post. Someone else specifically mentioned the latter, but my post was ambiguous, I guess.