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I hate the fact that Yale does not grade. How do you know who's smarter than someone else at Yale?
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<p>i can only hope that you are joking. if someone who gets into the most selective law school in the country feels a need to know if they are really "smarter" than their classmates, there is something seriously wrong.</p>
<p>quite honestly, this whole discussion strikes me as ridiculous. there will be very few people relative to the number of overall law school applicants who will actually have to deal with the issue of which of these schools is a better fit for them. a more constructive question to ask is what you want to do with your law degree other than try to prove you are smart by getting into a top school and getting better grades than others there.</p>
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If there's no competititon, how are you going to get people to become better? Sure its not great for the individual, but its better for society to have a way of determining who is the best of the brightest.
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you honestly think that it benefits society for 180 Yale law students to be trying to compete for grades to prove that one is "smarter" than their classmates? because grades are going to prove which of them is really going to be the better lawyer? because its quanitfiable which among those 180 are "better" or "smarter?" i'm sorry - these types of comments just really reflect a pitiful view of what the goal of a law student at a top school should be.
the best of the brightest will determine themselves by what they accomplish -- and accomplishments don't have to be measured by showing you are "better" than someone else.<br>
the truly brightest people i've ever met never felt a need to prove that by comparing grades. only those who seemed to think the grades in of themselves was the goal seemed to think that -- and i rarely saw people respected for that..</p>
<p>Your last sentence is more applicable to free markets than to law school.</p>
<p>I would assume that the vast majority of YLS students are going to work extremely hard anyway - after all, they are the best of the brightest to even get in the door. Consider that, annually, 100k-150k people take the LSAT; only a few hundred of those will get into Yale. </p>
<p>If we used your theory, we should ensure that the people at the bottom of their classes at HLS and YLS don't get jobs. The competition for the top slots (or at least avoiding the inevitable bottom) will ensure that even the best students will cut each other's throats for the top grades. </p>
<p>As discussed on another thread, the correlation between quality of law student and quality of lawyer is low. Weakens the argument for publishing grades and forcing a curve.</p>
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you honestly think that it benefits society for 180 Yale law students to be trying to compete for grades to prove that one is "smarter" than their classmates? because grades are going to prove which of them is really going to be the better lawyer? because its quanitfiable which among those 180 are "better" or "smarter?" i'm sorry - these types of comments just really reflect a pitiful view of what the goal of a law student at a top school should be.
the best of the brightest will determine themselves by what they accomplish -- and accomplishments don't have to be measured by showing you are "better" than someone else.
the truly brightest people i've ever met never felt a need to prove that by comparing grades. only those who seemed to think the grades in of themselves was the goal seemed to think that -- and i rarely saw people respected for that..
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<p>Well, while I understand what you are saying, I would say that it isn't really the fault of the law students to think that way. The law students think that way because the law firms and the prestigious clerkships think this way. In other words, they serve to encourage the competitiveness. </p>
<p>You say that it doesn't benefit all of the Yale Law students to compete against each other. Yet that is precisely what the students at most of the top students at the top schools do, including (and in some ways, especially) Harvard. I'm sure that people like ariesathena can tell you that a lot of law firm hiring is based on your grades. As are the selections for the top judicial clerkships. As are Law Review spots. So if you want to find somebody to blame, blame them. They are the true root cause for all of this law school competitiveness.</p>
<p>since i attended Yale Law School, i really do not need aries or anyone else to tell me about how things work there. Law Journal was NOT based on grades. Most students arrived there having been so competitive all their lives it took them awhile to calm down, but many did -- first term courses were just pass/fail making that transition easier. the ones that remained competitive - you know what -- no one really thought of them as being the "smartest" or "brightest" - only the most competitive. i can't really say they ended up doing any better in life than those who just took advantage of the oppurtunity they had attending YLS without viewing it as a contest to crown the best of the best.</p>
<p>just to add more -- most of the students at YLS turned down HLS (at least when I was there) and most for the very reason that they wanted to attend a law school where competition among students was discouraged. not saying this created a completely competitive-free environment -- old habits die hard -- but lack of competition was much more the norm in my experience.
class rank was not calculated. the attitude was that everyone there was smart and capable of reaching whatever goals they set for themselves.</p>
<p>in answer to the OP's opening question, i have no doubt in my mind what the answer is -- but the point remains -- debating the point is really pointless unless and until one holds the two acceptance letters in one's hand -- and even then there are other factors any individual might choose to consider. it is a much better use of time and energy for a prospective lawyer to think about what they want to get out of law school attendance other than the chance to show how smart they are.</p>
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I'm sure that people like ariesathena can tell you that a lot of law firm hiring is based on your grades.
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Yep. At many schools, law review is determined in part by grades. Some schools reserve spots for the top students, while others use a combination of grades and writing. Try to find schools where writing is used exclusively or exclusively for some spots, as those tend to be less competitive schools. </p>
<p>Law Review and grades really help people to get their foot in the door with interviews. This matters more the further down the rankings you go - which is why BizyMom did not encounter much of this at Yale. Most firms are happy, I imagine, just to have an Eli Law grad on their staff, so grades/law review matters less. </p>
<p>For clerkships, grades and especially law review are all-important. I've seen some clerkships that refuse to take anyone not in the top 15% or 20% of their class. (Also, some law firms have similar requirements; I imagine that they make exceptions for HYS, but such exceptions are just that.)</p>
<p>aries -- i have absolutely no problem with anything you say regarding how things are at other schools -- my comments were in response to prior posts complaining that YLS did not have a traditional grading system and therefore made it hard for students to evaluate themselves based on how they did in comparison to other students and that for some reason such competition was necessary/desirable even at YLS.</p>
<p>but personally, i also think all too often law students at other schools get too caught up in this type of competitiveness without stopping to think why -- the fact that some jobs or clerkships require a student to be at the top of their class, doesn't mean that those positions are necessarily the best career path for a given student -- such positions can become the "prize" that students strive for without them stopping to question if that is the type of law career they want. i realize that a student's options vary considerably depending upon where they attend - it is easier to say one shouldn't get caught up in the competition when one attends a school where choices are available if one doesn't -- but i think even at good schools other than YLS, students have options that they often fail to conisder because they get caught up in such competition. what i am saying has nothing to do with an individual trying to do their personal best.</p>
<p>No matter what, though, it is undeniable that having good grades keeps doors open for you. This is more important at lower-ranked schools; even having the name of a school on your resume can open doors that are not open to other students. </p>
<p>I go to an excellent school, but it isn't HYS. I chose it, in part, because it is not competitive. There's far too much comraderie for that. It does make law school a better place to be. The "gunners" all push themselves hard, but they (okay, okay, I've been called a gunner once or twice or a thousand times) don't compete with anyone.</p>
<p>Although there is no competition here, it doesn't change the fact that the goodies go to those on law journals and those with top grades. Yale is the exception to that rule.</p>
<p>ariesathena,
If my son ever actually applies to law school in a few years, I'm going to ask you where you went that had comraderie instead of cut-throat competition! :)</p>
<p>this is very random and very off topic, but I love that a YLS graduate does not capitalise her I's. . . not meant to be a mean comment, just a light hearted one!</p>
<p>There are also plenty of people who get into Yale and/or Harvard Law, who don't get into UVa Law and/or Columbia Law. You need great grades, high LSAT scores, a well written and thoughtful personal statement, solid recommendations and a little bit of pixie dust sprinkled on your application to get into the top law schools. No combination of grades and LSAT scores guarantees you a seat at these schools.</p>
<p>Sakky, that is correct. Very Very few. Sallyawp, that's just plain wrong for yale. There may be a couple that got into yale but not UVA(??) or CLS(?) but those people are incredibly rare. Every single one of the people i have met at Yale got into Harvard.</p>