<p>What are the best schools for Musical Theater? Im looking for the ones that have a good Musical Theater program, small (around 2000 students), and that have a good dance program too.</p>
<p>I would suggest that you puruse the forum and look at the FAQ link -- The Big List -- at the top of the forum. There is no such thing as the "best" school for musical theatre.</p>
<p>In terms of schools off the top of my head that offer musical theatre and have a student body of less than 2000 - 4000-ish... Muhlenberg, Boston Conservatory, Desales, Wilkes, Plymouth State University. Many MT programs are housed in larger universities.</p>
<p>OCU's student body is around 3,800.</p>
<p>University of the Arts has about 2700 students and is located in the heart of Philadelphia's theater district.</p>
<p>Marymount Manhattan College is a small school in the heart of New York City</p>
<p>In order to narrow down your choices, are you looking for a BFA degree? Why is the dance program so important to you? Not all MT schools offer BFA and many don't even require a dance audition.</p>
<p>Just because a school doesn't require a dance audition doesn't mean dance is not important in the program. My D is at NYU/Tisch (CAP21) -- not a contender for the OP because it's much larger -- but she has a ton of dance each day, and did not have to do a dance audition. She says she has so much dance she sometimes feels like a dance major! :)</p>
<p>Agree with NMR that having no dance audition does not necessarily reflect on the level or substance of the dance in the BFA in MT program. Tisch no longer holds a dance audition for admissions (though my D did one in 2005). However, dance is an equal component with acting and voice at CAP21 and my daughter had ballet, tap, jazz every semester at CAP, more than some other MT programs offer or require. </p>
<p>For that matter, I believe beenthereMTDad may have a child at BOCO and when my D auditioned for BOCO and was admitted, they had NO dance audition, although they have since added one.</p>
<p>If I may, most respectfully, and I do really mean respectfully - because I do respect NMR and Soozievt's opinions - disagree. I agree that a school not having dance in their audience does not mean that good dance training in absent at those programs. However, in my humbly offered opinion, it does make a statement about priorities held in such programs. It just makes sense that if you truly believe you want to produce triple threat graduates that you would want some indication as to their ability/potential in all three areas of acting, singing, and dancing.</p>
<p>I know that when you are auditioning many students, having them dance, in addition to their songs and monologues, takes more time and adds more parameters and time to the process, but if something is omitted, it gives an indication as to the programs' philosophical stance.</p>
<p>Having said that, I should admit (and it should be obvious) that I do have a bias toward a well-balanced program where all elements are equally weighted. I think, generally, triple threat training is the best way to help most students' chances of future success.</p>
<p>Mtdog...you make some valid points. I prefer a dance audition myself. That said, the lack of one doesn't always indicate the strength or significance of the dance training in the program. </p>
<p>For example, at Ithaca, there is no dance audition and in fact, Ithaca readily admits that dance is not equally balanced in their program with voice and acting. In examining the curriculum, my D thought the same. However, BOCO used to not have a dance audition, yet dance is equally emphasized with voice and acting in that program. AT CAP21, I can tell you from having a child in it, that dance is a significant component of the program and equally weighed with voice and acting.....a triple threat type training program. In fact, it requires more dance than many other BFA in MT programs per semester. While they do not audition dance to be admitted, they have placement auditions on the first day each year and so they have many levels of ballet, jazz, and tap, for example, PER GRADE/CLASS. I have seen some programs were every student is put in the same dance class (I think this is true at Ithaca and some others) and the levels of the participants vary a lot. At CAP21, those who have trained in dance their entire lives are not in the same technique classes as those who have been dancing just a short while. So, I agree about the importance of dance but would not make my judgement on the dance program at a school based on what they do at the audition because the real proof is in their MT curriculum requirements and offerings. At Emerson, the dance audition was so extremely basic, my daughter said, that anyone could do it unless they had two left feet and so it didn't really weed out who had technique and who did not. So, the audition isn't always the best indicator of the program itself. CMU had a dance audition that was very good, but I venture to say that my D had more dance per semester (three disciplines, six classes) at CAP21 than she would have had at CMU. </p>
<p>Like you, I also have a bias toward a well balanced program where singing, dancing and acting are equally weighted. I would judge that by the curriculum and not the audition, however.</p>
<p>One of the other benefits to having the opportunity to do a dance segment during an audition is that it provides an opportunity, albeit a limited one, to get a sense of how the dance program is approached. At some schools, the audition is intense and involves complex routines. At others, a student with meaningful dance experience could sleep through it. Usually, the dance audition is conducted by senior faculty that teach the dance for MT program and if not, then that says something too. And you get to see and experience the dance facilities if you audition on campus. Sometimes the dance audition can be a good window into the dance for MT program. </p>
<p>My daughter found that the dance auditions, in addition to giving her an opportunity to show another dimension of her abilities, really did provide her with more insight into the program. At one very well known and acclaimed school, the dance facilities for MT students were below par - no sprung floors - and the audition routines were very simple. Her impression was that the dance component was not emphasized nearly as much as others, an impression that was later confirmed. At another well known school, we had been advised in advance by a knowledgeable professional that the dance program was weak and the audition certainly reflected it. That school, when questioned, candidly admitted that it recommended that students who wanted serious dance training cross register at a nearby conservatory. In contrast, at yet another school, the dance audition was demanding, often complex and conducted by a Julliard trained "retired" pro (with serious national performing credentials) who heads up the dance program at the school for both BFA Dance and MT. The audition and the way it was conducted reflected the intensity and depth of the dance program at the school.</p>
<p>As soozie points out, there are some schools that do not have a dance audition component but yet have strong dance opportunities in the program. Regardless of whether there is or is not a dance portion to the audition, it remains very important to look at the curriculum of a school to get a sense of a program's balance. We made charts lining up schools side by side in which we listed the courses and hours per week (not just credits but the actual hours) spent in class, organized the chart by acting, voice, dance, music, MT performance and liberal arts. This gave us a good tool to compare the focus and balance of schools. We often found the outcomes to be very surprising and enabled us to view each school from a much more informed perspective.</p>
<p>mtdog- I can totally see your point, and I admit that I originally thought along the same lines as you, in fact even telling my D the same thing (she is a strong dancer, and was looking for a program equally strong in dancing, voice and acting). However, she talked to a lot of people she knew in the different programs to gather more insight about their opinions about the strength of training, which in turn helped her to compile the list of schools she applied to. The dance component was in fact so important to her that my D wanted to audition on campus to get a feel for the different facilities, and she also did not want to "dance on carpet" what typically happens during Unifieds. After all the "data gathering" Tisch (CAP21) was the only "no dance, off site audition school" that remained on her list :D.</p>
<p>At the Tisch auditions, during the info session, someone actually asked why they did away with the dance audition and if this meant that this was just not as important. The answer was that those auditions had brought out a lot of strong dancers who simply turned out to be weak singers and/or actors, and so they concluded that it was a waste of everyone's time. Before everyone "crawls all over me", this was THEIR opinion ;-). The dean of Tisch said that the adjudicators actually have a fairly good sense whether those auditioning have potential as dancers, based on how people present themselves posture wise during their artistic review, and compare this to the information provided on each person's resume. Additionally, the CAP program offers 4 levels of training for each dance class from beginner to advanced for each year, and so it is easier for them to accommodate those who have different strengths. For now my extremely picky child is very content. </p>
<p>I guess the moral of my story is, do not rule out a school because they don't have a dance audition, when dance is important to you :D. Like SoozieVT says, carefully review the curriculum, schools with dance auditions may actually in reality only offer "one freshman class for all levels", and some may offer MT-ers to take dance with dance majors, but classes may conflict etc.</p>
<p>Heck, my D (who is with MTgrlsmom's D at NYU/Tisch/CAP21) said she sometimes feels like a dance major because they have so much dance, and with four levels of dance each year, the school can definitely accommodate kids from beginning level to advanced dancers. My D, who had a lot of singing and acting experience going into college, wanted a program that would challenge her to become a better dancer. She has not been disappointed with the classes at NYU so far. :)</p>
<p>RE: TISCH/CAP21...that's the thing...they are heavy with dance in their program and accommodate a range of levels per year/grade, and not all programs do that and my daughter, who had been training in dance her entire life in a significant capacity really cared about the level of dance training at her programs on her list and it is one strong aspect of CAP in fact, even though they no longer hold a dance audition. They examine the resume, I'm sure. </p>
<p>It so happens that my daughter auditioned in 2005 and that year was the last year of the optional dance audition for advanced/experienced dancers and she did it. So did her theater friend from our region who is now in CAP as a senior too. I hear ya, MtGrlsmom as to what they told you about eliminating the dance audition (though I have never heard the reason as you told it but that is interesting nonetheless). Why they may have said it brought out the strong dancers and weak singers/actors...I dunno. For example, in my D's year, off the top of my head (and I surely don't know all the kids in the program but just thinking of some good friends of my D's in her year at CAP)....her pal she did theater with for years in our region, who is an advanced lifelong dancer who was in the top levels of dance all through CAP, has played leads in musicals there (she is a very good singer too!). The girl playing the lead in the mainstage musical, Cabaret, this fall, is a very advanced and highly trained dancer. My daughter also played the lead in the mainstage musicals and others at Tisch. I can think of a top dancer in her program who is now studying in Classical Studio. So, a lot of the top levef dancers in CAP (many of whom did the dance audition in my D's year) are also some of their strong singers/actors. But as in any program, some students have strengths in particular areas. Knowing what I do of MTgrlsmom's daughter who is a very skilled dancer at the top levels of her class at CAP with lots of previous dance training, she'd likely have done the dance audition if they still offered it for CAP as they did in my D's year and she (MTgrlsmom's D) is also a really talented singer who has played many lead MT roles. So, I don't know about that reason they gave ya, LOL. :)</p>
<p>Anyway, I agree with Michael that examining each school's MT program's curriculum is very important to do. I see some students who just pick schools that offer MT without fully exploring the details and comparing them and let's face it, these programs are all good but they differ in many ways. I think one reason my kid is happy where she is at and Michael's D is happy where she is at (just mentioning some of us who don't have frosh), is that they really examined their options closely and found programs (and luckily were admitted) that fit what they wanted. It really is important to do. I am surprised with some kids that I come in contact with who barely scratch the surface when creating a list of schools. It's a big decision. Explore deeply.</p>
<p>A professional actor that my daughter met through a mentorship program who graduated from NYU's Steinhardt School (musical theater program, which I think is a BM, right?) told her that Tisch/CAP21's program has a rep for being very very dance heavy. </p>
<p>So this is another case where the exception can prove the rule and is definitely another sign that it is CRUCIAL that kids making up their college lists do their homework.</p>
<p>NMR...yeah that was my whole point too. If one were to think that CAP21 was either weak in dance, didn't offer it that much, based on the fact that there is no dance audition to get in, they'd be very sadly mistaken. It is the opposite of that! LOL For each college MT program, applicants need to examine the curriculum closely and even examine if dance classes are leveled as well. There are major differences between programs and the audition is not always the best indicator of those differences.</p>
<p>(CAP21 IS dance heavy or heavier than many other programs I have seen. BTW, Steinhardt is more "dance light.")</p>
<p>Yeah, the whole no dance audition = potential weak dance emphasis prompted me to post, as it definitely turned out to be quite the opposite at NYU/Tisch/CAP21. SoozieVT, I am sure they were generalizing about "a dance audition bringing about strong dancers only". Now that I am beginning to understand a bit more about things though (it has taken me "only" about 10 years :D), I do understand that it is definitely easier to "spot" a dancer vs. a good voice or great actor. A dancer's posture gives away a lot. Now you do need to actually hear someone sing or see someone act, to know whether or not they can actually carry a tune, or portray a believable character :D.</p>
<p>From your experience would you say that as a generalization one could conclude that if there is not a dance audition then dance skills do not carry as much weight in the selection process ?? </p>
<p>I understand what is meant by 'spotting' a dancer however this is much less conclusive than an actual dance audition thus I can not imagine putting the same weight on an observation as they would on the singing and acting demonstrations.</p>
<p>My d happens to be a trained dancer, however for those that do not have much dance experience, would auditions that do not include a dance audition be a better option ??</p>
<p>And if acting is your low point then would you want to make sure there is a dance audition so you can show your skills in 2 out of the 3 areas ?</p>
<p>Enjoy - I am leaning towards agreeing with that generalization (although I had to read your first sentence a couple of times :)).</p>
<p>I do want to point out that, even if there is a dance audition, this does not necessarily mean that the program has a heavy emphasis on dance (I will refer to the posts some others made to that effect), nor does it necessarily mean that admission to that particular school hinges on how well one dances.</p>
<p>Going into the audition process last year, my D would have probably considered herself a strong dancer first, then a singer, and finally an actor, as her acting training up until that point had been limited to some workshops and summer programs, albeit intensive ones. Anyway, her goal was to find a college where she would be challenged as an advanced dancer, could continue & build on her vocal training, but, most importantly and this is very personal, she wanted to go to a college where she could really immerse herself into acting and push her limits, rather than "ride off of singing and dancing". </p>
<p>On the other hand, since she was fully aware of the incredibly low odds of getting into a BFA program to begin with, she tried to forget about having that "ideal concept" and "one dream school", and she came up with this list of schools, where she thought she could be happy, including some where she felt her dance ability might give her somewhat of an increased chance of acceptance, when combined with her vocal skills. </p>
<p>As you probably know from all your research already, some schools are "known" to look for existing triple threat qualities, others will accept triple threat 'potential', but I do feel that most schools will actually look for applicants with strong skills in 2 out of 3 areas. With all the talent that is out there, the more well rounded you are, the better of you are. </p>
<p>I think it definitely "pays" to understand what a particular program looks for when you compile your list, as all schools are so very different from one another, even if they offer that same BFA degree.</p>
<p>EnjoytheAdventur, you said "From your experience would you say that as a generalization one could conclude that if there is not a dance audition then dance skills do not carry as much weight in the selection process ??"</p>
<p>Yes, I can say with certainty that if a school doesn't have a dance audition then NO weight is put on dance skills are part of the audition selection process! That does not mean, however, that no importance is given to dance once the kid is in the program. But yes, if kids are not asked to dance AT the audition, then there is no real or accurate way that the auditors can measure that kid's dance skills. (Well, the auditors can look on a kid's resume and see what kind of training is there, if any, and so on. But as it would be impossible for the auditors to know every dance school in the US -- and elsewhere! -- as far as their quality, the auditors don't really know if, for instance, being in Level V at Miss Patty's Ballet and Tap Emporium is as impressive as, say, being in Level B at another place somewhere else.) </p>
<p>Does that make sense??</p>