<p>Agree with Warbler. Once the rankings get trotted out the neighoring big state U’s look better than the OP’s picks, but that isn’t the scene they want. </p>
<p>UM is accepting 50% of undergrad app’s for 2010. The major dif for most 18 yr olds between UM, UIUC and UW Madison is cost.</p>
<p>All of these schools are great institutions. If money is a concern, go to UMichigan.
If not, then apply to all three privates (and, preferably, more) and hope you get in. I agree with the above that WUSTL is known to be the most selective of all three. But when it comes to comparing the academic quality of the schools in the top 15 (or “academic prestige” for that matter), there’s not much a difference. Consider, for example, that many classes at these schools are taught by alum from the same pool of top schools- 1/2 of the professors at WUSTL are all from Harvard, Washington University in St. Louis, UC Berkeley, UChicago, etc. I think this is the case for other institutions as well. I would think all of these schools have ample research opportunities for its undergraduate (not sure about UMich, though I know it’s a research powerhouse; it’s just that coming from CA I know many peers who have trouble getting research in labs at the UCs like Berkeley) However, the atmosphere, surrounding city, and political climate might be different betwen the schools, which means a visit to each would be a good idea.</p>
<p>As a parent, I think your parents are really making a mistake here. Excellent schools reject excellent candidates all the time–you are in a generation of superachievers. Five applications would be a MINIMAL amount, unless you’re only applying to your local community college.Wouldn’t you be more stressed out if you didn’t get into any of your colleges? I saw my own child, who was maybe 15th in his class get into schools that the valedictorian didn’t get into. Why? I don’t know. Maybe his essay or interview was better, or he seemed like a better fit, but statistics alone don’t make or break the deal. </p>
<p>All of those schools are really fine. For the wow factor, I would pick UChicago, but I also think that the campus culture may be perfect for some kids and horrible for others, and that safety COULD be a factor. So, I think you couldn’t lose with any of them.</p>
<p>“Michigan is great, but why recommend it to OOS students when a decent in-state bargain can be found at UIUC? Illinois is top 20 in virtually all of the OP’s areas of interests, so it is not exactly weak.”</p>
<p>I am not sure I understand your question Warblersrule. Why recommend Chicago, NU or WUSTL when the OP can attend UIUC at in-state prices? It’s not like those schools are much better than UIUC either.</p>
<p>Michigan and UIUC are indeed peer universities. However, with the exception of Engineering, Computer Science and Physics, Michigan is generally considered stronger than UIUC, including in the 5 majors that ChetMan is considering. In those 5 traditional disciplines, Michigan averages a ranking of #9 (#4 in PS, #7 in History, #9 in Math, #12 in Econ and #15 in Biology). UIUC in comparison averages a ranking of #24 (#18 in Math, #21 in PS, #22 in History, #29 in Biology and #31 in Econ) in those 5 disciplines. That’s not a big difference mind you, but, considering that we are talking about individual subjects and not overall universities, a gap of 15 spots on average is worth noting. If we were talking about universities’ overall rankings, a difference of 15 is completely negligible. For example, in the overall rankings of those two universities, there is a gap of roughly 15 spots between Michigan and UIUC and I agree that as overall universities, they are equal. But for specific majors, there are differences. In Engineering, those two schools are roughly equal. In Phsycis and Computer Science, UIUC has an edge over Michigan. In most other fields of study, Michigan has the edge over UIUC.</p>
<p>Furthermore, even as peer institutions, there are differences between the two universities. Michigan’s campus and suroundings have a very different feel than Illinois’ campus and surroundings. Ann Arbor has a very intellectual and professional feel to it. Urbana Champaign on the other hand has a very agrarian and industrial feel to it. And the campus cultures are pretty different. There are generally close to 2,500 undergraduate students from NY/NJ/PA enrolled at Michigan and another 1,500 from California and Texas. That’s close to 4,500 undergrads from very different regions of the US. In addition, another 1,500 undergrads are international and other 1,500 or so come from either the South or the Northeast. Those 7,500 students give the undergraduate student body an element of diversity that does not exist at the UIUC. In total, only 3,800 (12%) of UIUC’s 32,000 undergrads come from out-of-state, compared to 10,500 (40%) of Michigan’s 26,000 undergrads.</p>
<p>Finally, for some reason, maybe the size of its endowment or the quality of its professional programs (all of which are ranked among the top 10 in the nation), Michigan is more prestigious than UIUC. Many people do not care about prestige, but those that do usually consider Michigan more prestigious. </p>
<p>“I’m not the only one to think so – only about 180 IL residents enroll in A&S at Michigan each year.”</p>
<p>180 per class means over 700 in total. That is a huge number. In other words, at any point in time, there are 700 students on Michigan’s campus who would rather spend $45,000 to attend Michigan than spend $20,000 to attend UIUC. Is it just me, or does that actually serve as an indication that Michigan is considered more prestigious than UIUC? And by the way, that number seems a little low. Back in my day, 1,300 or so undergrads at Michigan were Illinois residents. That number may have shrunk though. Either way, whether it is 700 or 1,300, that is a significant number who feel that Michigan is worth spending an additional $100,000 over four years to attend. How do you explain that?</p>
<p>At any rate, none of that matters, as ChetMan has already indicated that he does not think Michigan is for him. But I still agree with the majority here, limiting oneself to just 3 universities is unwise. One does not have to apply to 10 universities, but 6-7 is perfectly reasonable. Maybe he should look into Carleton, Grinnell or Oberlin if he wants to stay close to home. I also still think he should apply to one or two of the “Big 5” (HYPSM). So what if his sister was rejected? His chances are as good as anybody’s and he should give one or two a of them a go.</p>
<p>I might approach your parents one more time. Show them this thread, with many knowledgeable people suggesting that you apply to more schools. Also, you might explain that if you apply to more schools, you might not fixate on one or two schools (and hence your stress level could be reduced).</p>
<p>Havain’s post #40 is very important. Wash U does not require additional essays and its very short supplement takes about 5 minutes to fill out. I don’t see how it would stress you out to complete that additional application. In addition, I would suggest throwing in an application to McGill. About half the price of similar American schools and the application has no essays and take about 15 minutes to fill out. </p>
<p>Finally, both Dartmouth and Harvard do not have required additional essays.</p>
<p>
Why, then I will explain. </p>
<p>Michigan’s size makes it distinct from the other three universities. As I said before, a diversity of schools would be desirable. Since the OP already has a large public on his list, it is eminently sensible to add a smaller private. A place like Chicago would certainly be a place to look, for example, as it is quite small, matches or exceeds Michigan in every field they share, has revamped its financial aid to more generous measures, and is close to home. </p>
<p>Undergraduates in Arts & Sciences
Michigan 16223 </p>
<p>Chicago 5134
Northwestern 4374
WUStL 3913 </p>
<p>Total Undergraduates
Michigan 26208</p>
<p>Northwestern 8373
WUStL 5677
Chicago 5134</p>
<p>Class Sizes
Chicago 33% under 5
Northwestern 39.9% under 10, 35.4% 11-19
Michigan 13.0% under 10, 33.1% 11-19</p>
<p>On the other hand, Michigan does stick out in financial aid, as it apparently hands out merit scholarships like candy. It doesn’t meet the need of every student, but I suspect the 10% with need not met are international students.</p>
<p>Chicago
– 100% of need met
– 10% of each class receives merit aid; of that, 8% receive $10K
– Families making under $60K have no loans
– Families making $60-75K have halved loans</p>
<p>Northwestern
– 100% of need met
– 5% of each class receives merit aid; average is $2500 (National Merit?)</p>
<p>Michigan
– 90% of need met
– 33% of each class receives merit aid; average is $6500</p>
<p>
Ah, so you do understand my reasoning. Just as it makes sense to add a small private to a large public, it makes sense to add a LAC to the mix. </p>
<p>
Indeed. Given that it tends to be suggested on nearly every thread by one person or another, however, perhaps it would be best to create a pro-Michigan thread and sticky it in this forum.</p>
<p>I kid, I kid…kind of.</p>
<p>(Lest anyone accuse me of hypocrisy, note that I have recommended my own school only once since my return after a two year absence – and then only among a [very</a> long list of suggestions.](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/862813-best-colleges-u-s-history-2.html#post1064087105]very”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/862813-best-colleges-u-s-history-2.html#post1064087105))</p>
<p>Hawkette is surprisingly snobby about the fabulous UMich, a school that is known around the world for excellence, far more so than WUSTL, for instance.</p>
<p>Another parent agreeing that applying to only two highly selective schools is not in your best interests. When your parents say they are concerned about the stress of college applications, are they concerned about the stress of completing many different applications? Or, are they concerned about the stress of waiting for many different decisions, or visiting many different schools? Do they not want to be caught up in the drama and angst? I’d suggest that you identify what their specific concern with stress is, and then negotiate from there. As others have said, I would think that applying to this small number of schools is MORE of a recipe for stress. </p>
<p>If you ended up applying to more schools, would you be interested in also considering midwest LACS like Carleton, Grinnell or Macalester?</p>
<p>For the first of your two (private school) choices: I’d recommend UChicago. Based on your interests, UChicago has the strongest overall programs (especially for math, economics and political science). Also, UChicago is the most prestigious school on your list, if prestige is important to you.</p>
<p>For the second choice: you should probably flip a coin, unless athletics is important to you.</p>
<p>That said, I agree with pretty much everyone else that you need to convince your parents to allow you to apply to at least two more schools which are between UChicago/WUSTL/Northwestern and Illinois in selectivity.</p>
<p>Agree with the idea of Macalester/Grinnell/Oberlin/Carleton.</p>
<p>Here is what I found on theU.com regarding these schools; theU breaks down the schools by factors the applicant/accepted student might be interested in.</p>
<hr>
<p>WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST. LOUIS</p>
<p>Academic Reputation: “Best of the Best”
Cost: “Very Expensive”
Drug Scene: “Only on Weekends”
Getting In: “It Takes a Miracle!” (Acceptance rate = 20%)
Girls: “Average”
Guys: “Average”
Professors: “B”
Quality of Food/ Housing: “Very good”
Safety: “Very Safe”
Size: “Comfortable”
Sports: “No Sports Scene”
Surrounding Area: “Large City”
Weather: “Cold”
Workload: “Very Challenging”</p>
<hr>
<p>UCHICAGO
Academic Reputation: “Best of the Best”
Cost: “Expensive”
Drug Scene: “Straight Edge”
Getting In: “Very Competitive” (Acceptance rate= 40%)
Girls: not so good (don’t want to post the phrase theU used- sounded derogatory)
Guys: “Find Boys Off-Campus”
Professors: “A”
Quality of Food/ Housing: “Good”
Safety: “Be Careful”
Size: “Comfortable”
Sports: “Tiny Sports Scene”
Surrounding Area: “Small City”
Weather: “Freezing”
Workload: “Challenging”</p>
<hr>
<p>Northwestern</p>
<p>Academic Reputation: “Excellent”
Cost: “Very Expensive”
Drug Scene: “Only on Weekends”
Getting In: “Very Competitive” (Acceptance Rate = 33%)
Girls: “Average”
Guys: “Below Average”
Professors: “B+”
Quality of Food/ Housing: “It’s ok…”
Safety: “Be Careful”
Size: “Manageable”
Sports: “Solid Sports Scene”
Surrounding Area: “Suburban”
Weather: “Freezing”
Workload: “Challenging”</p>
<p>So as you can see from the above post, all three schools have great academic reputations and are all very competitive (with WUSTL being super competitive)
All around they are superb institutions which you should look into. And again, add some more schools to apply to because you CANNOT guarantee you will get into any of the three, even if you are a good student.</p>
<p>hawkette, Michigan is comparable to Chicago, Northwestern, and WUSTL. As Alexandre has already pointed Michigan is often equal or higher in the rankings for all of its departments compared with the three schools. Michigan has a stronger overall rep than Wisconsin and UIUC. They cannot be grouped just because they are all publics. Selectivity has nothing to do with reputation. For the longest time Chicago has had a 50%+ acceptance rate, yet it has remained in the top 10 schools throughout the years. Don’t bash Michigan because of its acceptance rate. </p>
<p>To the OP: Michigan should definitely be one of your considerations in the midwest. It is equal to or even stronger than the three schools you listed.</p>
<p>“Michigan has a stronger overall rep than Wisconsin and UIUC. They cannot be grouped just because they are all publics.” They aren’t being grouped because they are all publics. They are great publics with nearly identical undergrad stats and faculty quality. I know I konw, but “the PA scores”. How about National Academy members? Or Nobel winners? Let me know when a sitting Michigan faculty member is granted a Nobel Prize.</p>
<p>avocado, I cannot take theU.com rankings seriously because the information is not only incorrect and outdated (all 3 schools now have sub-30% acceptance rates), it referred to UChicago’s setting as “Small City” and we all know that Chicago is NOT a small city.</p>
<p>OP – please have your parents read this thread.</p>
<p>There is another reason to apply to at least 2-3 more schools: financial aid outcomes. It is not uncommon for one school of approximately equal rank to another offer a student $20,000 in scholarship while another offers $8,000. </p>
<p>I would suggest all three of your privates, plus Illinois, plus one reach known for great financial aid… any of the HYPSM would fill that generous aid role. Another quality school (sort of) near you is Vanderbilt.</p>
<p>There is a large consensus on these boards that applying to only 3 school is setting yourself up for major disappointment. Acceptance only correlates moderately with stats and all three schools on your list receive far more qualified applications than they can accept. After you remove ED at WUSTL and NU your chances are worse than being picked for American Idol. </p>
<p>If your parents really want to remove the stress just apply to UI and no other school. Frankly, that is the most likely outcome anyway with 2 high reaches and a safety. </p>
<p>Unless you walk on water, you need to apply to a lot more reaches than 2 to have a reasonable shot at getting into any. With stats similar to yours our D applied to 17 schools, out of which ten were reaches. She got in to 3 reaches (not the ones we would have guessed) with only 2 offering decent FA. In the end, less stress for everybody because of many apps.</p>
<p>In the end, you are an adult (or about to become one) and should be able to have major say in deciding for your own future.</p>
<p>I vote Washington University in St. Louis and UChicago because both are affiliated with a large number of Nobel Prize winners. i’m not too familiar with Northwestern but i’m sure it’s a good school and i hear it’s very good for premed.</p>
<p>On an academic basis (grad school/dept. focus) - it would be UChicago followed by Northwestern and then WUSTL.</p>
<p>Could throw UM in the mix, but quite a diff. in size and the state schools do have a diff. directive than private universities (if one throws UM in the mix, might as well thrown in UW).</p>
<p>Also, UM makes little sense if one could go to UI at significant savings w/ in-state tuition; would also apply in comparison to the privates.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Nobel Prize Winners:</p>
<p>Chicago - 85
WashU - 22
NU - 7</p>
<p>I’m just going to straight-up say it. If you want to go into academia, Chicago should be your first choice. It’s not even a contest. Strictly in terms of academia, Chicago is regarded on the same plane as Harvard, and Chicago is even often preferred to Harvard, as indicated by Nobel Prize affiliations (Chicago has more Nobel affiliates than Harvard). This can hardly be said for NU or WashU. I understand that it’s good to be open-minded on these issues and state that every school is good, but strictly in terms of academics, there’s really no comparison to Chicago.</p>