Ask how many actually complete the Dartmouth or similar programs.
As much as I sing Purdue’s praises, flexibility in switching majors is not one of their strengths, unless your student started in engineering and switched out to physics or chemistry. Doing the other way around doesn’t work there.
I also think Case would be a good choice for your student in terms of flexibility, and the schools that roycroftmom mentioned for LACs with engineering programs. FWIW, I’m also not a fan of the 3-2 programs. IMO, you are better off looking for schools where you can be done in 4 years and don’t need to move campuses.
If you are looking for another reach, Notre Dame doesn’t require students to declare a major until second semester sophomore year so the flexibility would be there. Another option would be Cornell. While you do apply to a specific college it would be more straight forward to change majors there, especially from physics to engineering or vice versa. (The only exception to that would be for a Dyson (business)).
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As I recall, it is about 35 a year for Dartmouth’s program, with competitive admissions.
Schools with open curricula, such as Grinnell, Brown University, Amherst and Hamilton can be especially conducive to this.
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Purdue is a reach for engineering. I think it’s a low reach, high match for physics. Definitely not a safety in any event.
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Seconding(thirding) Case Western Reserve.
What about URochester?
There are many LACs with strong Physics programs and being male would be a hook.
Amherst, Grinnell, Vassar?
Fewer LACs with Engineering (Lafayette, Bucknell, Trinity?)
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So I am not normally huge into US News, but I think this might be useful as an idea-generator for you:
This is their list of top engineering colleges without a doctoral program, so it includes Harvey Mudd. If you like Harvey Mudd, Cooper Union can also be great, but it is also very small with very competitive admissions (don’t let the relatively high acceptance rate fool you–Cooper Union does not get as many frivolous applications as some places). Swarthmore is another popular one, but again extremely selective.
Beyond those, and holding aside the real engineering specialists (like Olin), some of these are still large, but some are also small (or smallish), and might be on point.
Like, I was already going to recommend you seriously check out Bucknell, and you can see why. If you are looking for a smaller college that is not completely focused on engineering but where it is a good option if you end up wanting it, I think Bucknell really stands out. Lafeyette is also a good option along those lines. I know less about it because it is outside of my normal scope, but I have heard good things about Gonzaga for people looking for this sort of college.
I also think Wake Forest is another very interesting one. Not a lot of people think of Wake when considering Engineering because they have a pretty unusual approach, but I think for some people it can turn out great. Wake in general is on the small side for a university and super-focused on teaching excellence, smaller classes, getting to know professors–definitely an interesting option I would think:
Finally, although not on this list because it does have a doctoral program, if you like that Wake sort of idea I would also check out Rochester. Rochester is one of those colleges where engineering is in the same academic division as sciences, and again is not a very large university with a lot of focus on undergraduate teaching, including research opportunities:
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If he wants a small school but you need a better price, Mudd isn’t it.
You need to find a school like Kalamazoo, Wooster, Allegheny…maybe a RHIT - a lot will depend on the budget you desire.
Or if you want cheap - you do an Alabama or MS State - and get in the Honors College and maybe even sub groups within Honors. Like Randall Research at Alabama. UAH would be a smaller school STEM focused - like 10k. Or even a Florida Tech has great merit.
You have to first set a budget. But there’s a lot of great schools - even a Trinity has great merit as will a Southwestern.
But you were like Mudd is it - but I don’t want to pay more than UT.
Budget first - then we find appropriate schools to fit the budget - would be how I’d go.
This is based on non-engineering the schools I mentioned - I should add - although the big schools all have solid engineering programs. And my notes are based on cost since that was a concern for you.
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UT is so all over with admit, even for top 6% in engineering. Then when you get there, can you get into the program you want? Our salutatorian last year is currently at Harvard and did not get into UT engineering. Pretty sad.
Have you considered UT Dallas? They have a great engineering program and it might be easy for him to explore all of his interests there, both physics and ME.
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Look into WPI?
But if he’s a true polymath, the combination of intense science/Engineering + solid humanities&social science requirements is pretty unique to Mudd. Is there any way he can visit?
(This combination is easier to attain with a Physics major).
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Knowing not much about your son, apart from the fact that he is smart, intellectually curious, might prefer a smaller school, and thinks he can be happy almost anywhere, this is a list of schools below 10k undergrads (most under 5k) where I think he would have the flexibility to explore or switch majors with relative ease. They’re all ABET-accredited for engineering (which is very important for many engineering disciplines, like ME) and I added in a few that seemed like they might be particularly good for your son’s diving & water interests. They all also tend to be well-respected either overall academically, and/or for STEM in particular.
That said, there are a lot of differences between them. Some are in urban locations while others are in remote areas (and things in between). They range from the east coast to the west coast and from Florida and Texas all the way to South Dakota and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Some have big sports enthusiasm (at least for certain sports) while at others, sports may not be on the radar for most of the undergrads. Some are STEM-focused schools while others have broader offerings. Most offer merit aid, while some don’t offer any. If you let us know more about your son’s personality and desires, posters on here can probably help eliminate some of the possibilities here (or suggest closer to attention to some). Ditto about preferred budgets.
These schools are sorted by my very fallible guesses as to what your son’s chances at these schools may be.
Extremely Likely (80-99+%)
- Clarkson (NY): About 2700 undergrads
- Gonzaga (WA): About 5100 undergrads
- Marquette (WI): About 7500 undergrads
- Michigan Tech: About 5700 undergrads
- Missouri Science & Technology: About 5500 undergrads
- Seattle (WA): About 4k undergrads
- South Dakota Mines & Technology: About 2200 undergrads
- Texas A&M-Corpus Christi: About 7800 undergrads
- U. of Alabama – Huntsville: About 7200 undergrads
- U. of Dayton (OH): About 8400 undergrads
- U. of Denver (CO): About 6200 undergrads
- U. of Portland (OR): About 3400 undergrads
Likely (60-79%)
- Colorado School of Mines: About 5700 undergrads…leaning towards toss-up
- Fairfield (CT): About 4800 undergrads
- Florida Institute of Technology: About 3300 undergrads
- Illinois Institute of Technology: About 3100 undergrads
- Rensselaer Polytechnic: About 5900 undergrads
Toss-Up (40-59%)
- Loyola Marymount (CA): About 7300 undergrads
- Santa Clara (CA): About 6100 undergrads
- Southern Methodist (TX): About 7100 undergrads
- Stevens Institute of Technology (NJ): About 4100 undergrads
- Union (NY): About 2100 undergrads
- U. of Rochester (NY): About 6800 undergrads
- U. of San Diego (CA): About 5700 undergrads
- U. of Tulsa (OK): About 2600 undergrads
- Worcester Polytechnic (MA): About 5200 undergrads
Lower Probability (20-39%)
- Bucknell (PA ): About 3700 undergrads
- Case Western (OH): About 6k undergrads
- Lafayette (PA ): About 2700 undergrads
- Lehigh (PA ): About 5600 undergrads
Low Probability (less than 20%)
- Tufts (MA): About 6800 undergrads
- Washington U (MO): About 8100 undergrads
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For a student who would like to explore physical sciences generally, I’d recommend a school with a strong geosciences department. This field offers interesting electives and the potential for cross-disciplinary pursuits. The major itself also may be of interest.
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I’m not saying we won’t pay for Mudd. I know UT is a great school, but my son feels like Mudd is a better fit. Is it $65k x 4 years better? Now that seems unlikely.
Because we want to keep the engineering door open, I have been presuming we need to go with something other than a liberal arts college. Do you think that’s accurate? What do you think of the other schools on his list – CU Boulder, Rensselaer?
I really appreciate your time.
I’d say this is true only if the prospect of a dual degree program or master’s in engineering seems undesirable. Otherwise, a physics major, especially one that offers the potential for a hands-on orientation, would create a great foundation for a student interested in mechanical engineering.
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Thanks so much for your thoughtful and detailed response. I’m amazed and so grateful at the time people are willing to dedicate to helping out a stranger.
The list you’ve provided gives us a lot to think about. When I suggested to my son Colorado School of Mines, he was excited about the outdoor possibilities living in Colorado, skiing in particular. He loves the outdoors, music, philosophy, meditation, mountain biking, weightlifting, hanging out with friends. He’s very open-minded, independent, and thoughtful. Wouldn’t be much into Greek life or football games though he would do those things if that’s what friends were into. He enjoys independent projects, like bringing a dead car back to life, installing a new audio system into his own and then a friend’s car, creating complex Halloween costumes, etc. He follows YouTube channels on Physics, Math, Philosophy to the degree that his IB HL Math and Physics II classes are not presenting him with new material.
Is that the kind of info you were looking for?
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Given that 3+2 or 2+1+1+1 programs, or needing a master’s degree, involves more than four years of college costs (which the OP is concerned about, even though the OP can pay private college list price), they are likely undesirable to the OP for that reason, before going into any other reasons.
In addition, admission to the engineering school for the +2, +1/+1, or master’s degree program may be competitive, and scholarships from the first school do not follow to the engineering school.
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I think you need a budget #.
You say it’s not that we won’t pay but is it worth it……
Given you can get a great degree OOS as low as $20k, you can make that same argument about UT. Is it worth it ? My kid rejected Purdue with merit for Alabama - it didn’t hurt him career wise at all. Lots of high paid offers.
For physics, Arizona is top notch. CU is strong too. Both would be strong in engineering. Chemistry - you might say Delaware and Minnesota. Both fine in engineering too.
But if you want smaller - well these are all huge.
There are LACs with ABET engineering to give the best of both.
But u need a budget. I’m a full pay dad. I had a budget. Why ?
If he gets into Mudd and u send him there you’d regret it each and every day. Know your financial comfort zone now.
Even CU is pricey. Most get $6250 a year off.
You don’t want to but you need to - where is your comfort zone $$ wise.
So my kid only applied to schools that could make budget. Not all did but all could. Those acceptances that didn’t were auto eliminated. No emotion.
You are saying you have no budget but you’re a value shopper. That’s why you need one - take away the angst.
Ours was $50k. Thank god both spent less than half of that. Cutting that check 2x a year - brutal. And don’t forget many kids spend more at college than the published price.my 2nd does for sure !!
Ps - Mines is awesome. Given he likes to piece cars together, it’s not exact but consider schools with an ecoCAR team.
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Wondering if the Philosophy&Physics major at Scottish or Irish “old” universities might be of interest?
Pivoting to Engineering may be difficult after 1st year.
HarveyMudd is such a niche school (highly intellectual kids who are equally strong in STEM and Humanities/Social science, ready for an intense experience that allows people to pivot to various STEM fields, with a high interest in research) that it’s almost unique for Engineering (where usually nonSTEM classes are few&far between, rarely coordinated). I can see how, if you can afford it, it’d be the right investment for the right student.
Typical ABET Engineering with solid Honors College offerings can suffice if Mudd’s specific liberal arts offerings aren’t thet important.
However for Physics a solid gen ed or core curriculum can easily be found (Bucknell, Lafayette, etc), as well as colleges with no requirements (such as Amherst). WPI offers more courses due to its specific calendar and can integrate more non Engineering classes.
Case Western or URochester may be the sweet spot though.
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In reading this, I would definitely have your son look into Clarkson. It has both alpine and Nordic skiing teams/clubs and is in just a great location for the outdoors.
If skiing is an interest, these schools have USCSA teams which could be of interest for your son, or at least indicates that there’s sufficient proximity and other folks interested in skiing at the school.
- Colorado School of Mines has alpine.
- Fairfield has alpine, free ski, and snowboard
- Lafayette has alpine, free ski, and snowboard
- Lehigh has alpine.
- Michigan Tech has alpine, free ski, and snowboard (and seems to be another school with a terrific location for lovers of the outdoors).
- Rensselaer has alpine.
- Stevens has alpine, free ski, and snowboard, but the school itself has gorgeous views of Manhattan. It is not surrounded by the great natural beauty directly off campus.
- Claremont Colleges (inclusive of Harvey Mudd) have alpine, free ski, and snowboard.
- Tufts has alpine, though this school is in a suburb of Boston.
- U. of Rochester has alpine.
- Worcester Polytechnic has alpine, freeski, and nordic.
Also, U. of Denver does not have an official ski team, but I have heard that it is a popular activity with a number of students there.
Skiing is not an inexpensive activity, so your family may want to keep that in mind with respect to the cost of his undergraduate institution, if that’s an activity he would like to pursue.
I think figuring out how willing/interested he would be in Greek life could be important. Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh, Union, and Southern Methodist all have a reputation for greater involvement in Greek life. There are certainly students at these schools who don’t go Greek, but reputationally, it plays a more important role at these schools. Some of it may be changing, however, so this is something you’d want to investigate. Lafayette, for instance, may be having less of a focus on Greek life than in previous years, if I remember a poster’s comments correctly.
One school that was on the list of EcoCAR EV teams was Illinois Institute of Technology.
I know that there are students who enjoy participating in SAE (Society of Automotive Engineering) clubs/competitions. According to SAE’s site, these colleges have chapters:
- Case Western
- Colorado School of Mines
- Fairfield
- Florida Tech
- Lehigh
- Michigan Tech
- South Dakota Mines
- Union
- U. of San Diego
- WPI
Schools on both the skiing and SAE list include: Fairfield, Lehigh, Michigan Tech, and WPI.
I’ll let others provide additional feedback.
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