<p>Does anyone know some of the best Chemistry departments? Or Physics? Those are the two majors I'm most interested in. I live pretty close to GA Tech, which I know has a good engineering department, but I'm not sure about Chem/Physics.</p>
<p>Gourman Report undergrad chemistry ranking:
Caltech
UC Berkeley
Harvard
MIT
Columbia
Stanford
Illimois Urbana Champaign
U Chicago
UCLA
Wisconsin Madison
Cornell
Northwestern
Princeton
Yale
Purdue
UNC Chapel Hill
Ohio State
Texas Austin
Iowa State
Indiana Bloomington
UC San Diego
Minnesota
Notre Dame
Penn State
Brown
U Rochester
Carnegie Mellon
U Penn
Rice
Michigan Ann Arbor
U Washington
Colorado Boulder
Texas A&M
USC
U Pittsburgh
U Florida
UC Riverside
dartmouth
UC Santa Barbara
UC Irvine
Johns Hopkins
UC Davis
U Utah
U Oregon
Duke
Michigan State
RPI
UVA
Florida State
Vanderbilt
Case Western
u Iowa
Georgia Tech</p>
<p>Gourman Report undergraduate rankings for Physics:</p>
<p>Caltech
Harvard
Cornell
Princeton
MIT
UC Berkeley
Stanford
U Chicago
U Illinois Urbana Champaign
Columbia
Yale
Georgia Tech
UC San Diego
UCLA
U Penn
U Wisconsin Madison
U Washington
U Michigan Ann Arbor
U Maryland College Park
UC Santa Barbara
U Texas Austin
Carnegie Mellon
U Minnesota
RPI
Brown
Johns Hopkins
Michigan State
Notre Dame
SUNY Stony Brook
Case Western
Northwestern
U Rochester
U Pittsburgh
Penn State University Park</p>
<p>GTech and UGA are probably going to be the best values for you, by far. They're solid in both fields (especially GTech), and will be really cheap for you. </p>
<p>Additionally, maybe Lehigh? It's the only other school that comes to mind aside from the Gourman lists.</p>
<p>In the Liberal Arts Colleges regime, some excellent schools include: Harvey Mudd, Williams, Reed, Grinnell, Swarthmore, Oberlin, Carleton, etc...</p>
<p>The top LACs do very well in the physical sciences (not to mention earth and life sciences). At Colgate, for example, you could integrate physics with geology –*a solid combination from any standpoint.</p>
<p>The best undergrad chemistry education is at a school that doesn't have grad programs, Furman, Colgate, William and Mary, etc.</p>
<p>Then get a Ph.D at one of the schools listed.</p>
<p>Most of the chem profs at Duke went to undergrad schools.</p>
<p>good luck.</p>
<p>jr</p>
<p>rofl...i would hope that most of the duke profs went to undergrad.</p>
<p>I think what jrideooo meant is that they went to undergrad-only schools.</p>
<p>I really hate this idea, which seems to be popular on CC, that if your school doesn't have grad students, it automatically means a better education.</p>
<p>It depends on what you are looking for.</p>
<p>If you want to do research in a big lab, you want your school to have grads and postdocs, since otherwise your lab is just the PI and whatever undergrads are there. If you want to have the chance to develop relationships with big-name research professors, they tend to be at research universities, not teaching colleges. If you want lots of fellow undergrads in your department to interact with and study with, you probably want a research university, because it's likely to have more undergrads. If you want to talk with grad students about their experiences and perspectives, you obviously want there to be grad students around. If you want a school with a high priority on research and lots of research funding, you probably want a research university.</p>
<p>If you're too shy or unassertive to approach a prof unless strong student/prof relations are part of the built-in culture of the school, you probably want a LAC. If you want a lot of individual attention from your professors, you either want a LAC or a small department at a research university. If you want few other undergrads in your major, because it means more of the department's resources devoted to you and people being more likely to remember who you are, you want a LAC or a small department. If you need a good undergrad advisor, you probably want a LAC.</p>
<p>Jessiehl, you make some valid points. I particularly like your idea that personal fit with the size and anonymity of the research university could make it better for an individual student.</p>
<p>However, I feel I should mention something with regards to "research opportunities" at LACs vs. at research universities. I posted this in another thread, but I feel it is relevant here as well. Here goes:</p>
<p>Simply put, it's hard for an undergraduate to make serious, hardcore, extremely useful contributions to research in math and science. For any undergraduate, anywhere, especially in my opinion in math and physics, but also in biology and chemistry.</p>
<p>The reason for this is that math and science are very advanced, and require a lot of training and coursework to get to the level of truly understanding the current, cutting edge research literature. In physics, to name one example, you usually need to have advanced understanding of graduate electrodynamics, quantum mechanics, oftentimes classical and quantum field theory. And then you have to learn all about the advanced details of the topic of your sub-specialty. Simply put, it's HARD for most undergrads to gain a level of background in mathematics and science to really seriously contribute at the level that graduate students or postdocs do. This is to be expected of course.</p>
<p>But the reason I am bringing it up is because I think it is for this reason that, for undergraduate at least, the breadth and depth and type of research that is offered is not so important. What is more important in my opinion is that you have good role model faculty members and student peers who can help you build up your bag of tools and skill set. To be a good graduate student and overall researcher, you should understand how to perform experiments, how to program and code, how to write and communicate (VERY IMPORTANT!!), and most importantly, HOW TO LEARN NEW THINGS INDEPENDENTLY! There will always be new things to learn when one is doing research, such as different programming languages, various experimental techniques, conceptual theories, etc... You have to have the ability to figure things out for yourself.</p>
<p>Most high school students, when they first start college, do not really understand what true serious research is like and how it is conducted (I know this, my professors have told me of their experience with undergrads). It is therefore important that you have people who will look over you, and slowly, carefully wean you and polish your skills. That way, with proper care and attention, by the time you have graduated, your abilities and understanding of how science and math are really done has matured to the appropriate level.</p>
<p>The importance of understanding how to do research cannot be underestimated. Without this understanding, it really doesn't mean that much if you have so many different professors working on so many different problems and projects. You have to develop the skill set and the knowledge base to be able to maturely, independently, productively contribute to such a research project. Which brings me back to my initial point, that one should not really worry too much about certain state schools or universities having more cutting edge research than LACs. While you are still an undergrad, it is more important that you have some research there period, and that you have people who help you develop your research abilities. That way, by the time you are a graduate student, you can really, successfully contribute to those cutting edge groups at the larger schools. I think LACs in general do a better job of helping this personal development along, and I think that's why so many LAC alumni can successfully complete Ph.D's.</p>
<p>For those looking for more insight into the small-school, big-school debate over better undergraduate training here are some numbers to consider.</p>
<p>Take this example. I have experience with two public liberal arts colleges: St. Mary's College of Maryland and University of Minnesota, Morris. Both are undergrad-only institutions with campus populations of 1500-2000 students. Both are located in states with very well respected flagship institutions, University of Maryland, College Park and University of Minnesota, Twin Cities.</p>
<p>Using National Science Foundation data I determined the number of graduates in the Physics and Chemistry that go on to earn a PhD after earning a bachelor's from each institution. </p>
<p>Maryland
From 1997 to 2006 St. Mary's College of Maryland had 102 students graduate with a bachelor's in Physics or Chemistry. During this same period 7 students who earned their bachelor's at SMCM earned a PhD. Thus 6.8% of physics/chemistry graduates from SMCM go on to earn a PhD.</p>
<p>From 1997 to 2006 University of Maryland, College Park had 966 students graduate with a bachelor's in Physics or Chemistry. During this same period 64 students that earned their bachelor's at UMCP earned a PhD. Thus 6.6% of physics/chemistry graduates from UMCP go on to earn a PhD.</p>
<p>Minnesota
From 1997 to 2006 University of Minnesota, Morris had 147 students graduate with a bachelor's in Physics or Chemistry. During this same period 30 students who earned their bachelor's at UMM earned at PhD. Thus 20.4% of physics/chemistry graduates from UMM go on to earn a PhD.</p>
<p>From 1997 to 2006 University of Minnesota, Twin Cities had 1460 students graduate with a bachelor's in Physics or Chemistry. During this same period 126 students that earned their bachelor's at UMTC earned a PhD. Thus 8.6% of physics/chemistry graduates from UMTC go on to earn a PhD.</p>
<p>While St. Mary's and UMM may not have the national reputation of their state's flagship institutions, this data clearly shows that in both cases the public liberal arts colleges outperform their respective state flagship institutions when it comes to preparing their students for graduate school in these subjects</p>
<p>If you have any questions about my methodology please feel free to let me know. All data was obtained from the following NSF site, [url=<a href="http://caspar.nsf.gov/index.jsp?subHeader=WebCASPARHome%5DWebCASPAR%7C%5B/url">http://caspar.nsf.gov/index.jsp?subHeader=WebCASPARHome]WebCASPAR|[/url</a>]</p>
<p>It is not the easiest database to learn how to use but it is quite powerful.</p>