Hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some suggestions for good chem/biochem universities. So far, I really like Stanford (I visited and loved the vibe/campus) but I read this one post (I believe here on CC) that said that Stanford’s undergrad chem program isn’t the greatest. Is that true? I am interested in biochem/chemical bio, specifically. I also really like MIT from what I’ve read/heard about it, but I have never visited. I also like Dartmouth and Cornell, Cornell because it is supposedly great for the sciences and because it looks really pretty from pictures, and Dartmouth because it is a bit smaller, but not toooo small, and still a great school overall. I think I like schools in slightly less urban environments (That is one thing that concerns me about MIT, but at least it is right on a river which is cool!) but I wouldn’t be opposed to going to an urban school if it had at least some sort of natural beauty, trees, parks, etc nearby. Being near skiing would be a huge plus. I really dislike hot weather, so I would prefer to be somewhere where it doesn’t get too warm. Summertime in the 80 degrees F range is fine, though. Doing research as soon as possible as an undergrad is super important to me, so I want to go to a school where I would have lots of research opportunities. That is the main thing that attracts me to MIT. I would really appreciate any advice/suggestions on what schools to apply to. Although I am only a rising junior, I am trying to figure out what schools I should visit next summer. If you need to know, I am ranked 1st academically in my hs class, have a 4.0 UW GPA, have done research in hs, have leadership positions in several clubs, and am aiming to score at least a 1500 on the SAT. My current SAT score is only in the 1400s though. Going to a “well-renowned” school is kind of important to me, although it is most definitely not the most important factor I’m considering. My ultimate goal is to get either a PhD or MD/PhD, and I know that what school I attend for undergrad is less important than the school I attend for grad school. My research interests are biochemistry, chemical biology, molecular biophysics, etc, so any schools with strong programs for those research areas specifically would be awesome. I do, however, know that at the undergrad level, just having a strong general chemistry program/major is most important. Thanks!!
Some schools that interest me besides the ones I mentioned are: Caltech, UCSD, University of Washington, University of Utah, CU Boulder, UCSB, and UC Berkeley (I visited Berkeley and didn’t love the vibe I got there, but I know the Berkeley College of Chemistry is awesome and the trees on campus were nice, despite the super urban setting. So, I will apply there and if I am accepted, I’ll likely return to visit again and see how I feel about it the second time around).
I was a grad student in chemistry at Stanford and agree that it doesn’t offer the best undergrad chemistry education. Not enough of the professors care and the course offerings are surprisingly slim. I found that the organic chem sequence seemed to be constructed for a pre-med audience. On the other hand, Harvard has an excellent undergrad chem program that’s very rigorous and makes really creative scientists.
Based on the classmates I had through grad school and the other prospective grad students I met when I went on grad school visits (only top 10s: UIUC, Princeton, Caltech, etc.), Cornell is an over-represented alma mater. And the Cornell alums seem very happy with their undergrad experience. But pretty much every type of undergrad school can get you into a top PhD program - just make sure to get substantial research experience like a REU/PURE/SURF program. Keep your GPA at least 3.5 (3.7+ is ideal), get at least 80th percentile in the quant GRE, and if you’re from a smaller liberal arts school or your chemistry BS is not ACS certified, try to get a high GRE chem subject score. To really improve your chances, get a publication, especially a 1st authorship.
All the schools you’re interested in have strong programs and I know people from all of those schools who were accepted into the Stanford PhD recently except maybe Dartmouth. But that’s probably just because of its small size and less physical science focused population. But it’s the serious interest in research that gets people into top 10 grad schools. Take all the grad-level classes you are interested in when you’re a Junior/Senior and do research at least every summer after sophomore year. Everyone I knew in grad school had at least 2 years of undergrad research experience.
For your research interests, at the undergraduate level, just be open-minded. Every R1 school (all the ones you’ve listed except Dartmouth) will have a large number of faculty working on all sorts of stuff. You don’t have to do your research with a chemistry professor. You can reach out to professors in physics, bioengineering, systems biology, whatever. At Berkeley, some undergrads can do research at LBNL or the Molecular Foundry which is a really cool national lab with a strong program in bio-inspired systems and materials.
A surprisingly strong chemistry school for undergrads is Montana State in Bozeman. UF is also good. Some smaller LACs with good chemistry preparation are Harvey Mudd, Smith, Haverford.
You should keep in mind that at top schools, you are generally not allowed to do your PhD at the same school you did your BS at - your application will not be taken seriously by the adcom unless there are exceptional circumstances. Just something to consider if for some reason you have a particular professor you really want to do your PhD with (though you probably shouldn’t set your sights so narrowly at this stage).
Thank you so much for that insight, it really helps!! Yes, getting involved in research as soon as possible is definitely something I am going to try to do. I had the opportunity to work in a biochemistry lab this summer, and it was such an amazing experience that got me super excited to get back into a lab once I get to college. That’s one of the reasons why Dartmouth interests me… They have a program called the Women In Science Project that makes it pretty easy to get started in a lab freshman year. MIT has a somewhat similar program called UROP. Cornell seems pretty cool, my only concern is that some of the labs I’ve found online seem to be located all the way in NYC. Although, I’m sure there are plenty of great labs located on campus. When you say that Stanford’s organic chemistry classes are “pre-med oriented,” does that mean that they are easier/dumbed-down? I might be pre-med myself, although my primary interest is research/biochemistry. If I end up going the med school route (which I am still not sure I will do), I will apply to MD/PhD programs. Orgo seems really interesting to me, so having an easier/less intense orgo sequence would be a big downfall to me. The limited course selections for chem in general are also super disappointing. Are undergrads at Stanford ever allowed to take graduate level courses? I have heard you can do that at some schools, and maybe that would be a way to take more interesting/challenging chem classes. If not, I might have to reconsider Stanford… After I visited, I thought I loved it and wanted to apply early action there, but I might have to look elsewhere.
Stanford’s undergrad organic sequence is really taught for MCAT prep. ~300-400 students complete the orgo sequence every year, and we graduate ~20-30 chemistry majors per year. The vast majority of people taking chemistry are there to fulfill requirements for a non-chemistry major or as MCAT prep. The main problem is that there are so few chem majors or people who are intrinsically interested in the material. In sections with 2 or more people who are really interested in the material, you can cover a lot more in depth stuff (ie. the reasons behind why a reaction works the way it does). If students don’t ask questions we get stuck just doing rote practice because that’s what the students ask for.
I’ve only seen 1 undergrad/year max take the first grad-level orgo course without dropping mid-quarter. Unfortunately, by the end of the undergrad organic sequence (CHEM 131), a student has not seen enough chemistry to understand the grad class, which is of course geared towards 1st year grad students with usually 3 years of research experience, publications, and graduated top of their respective undergrad classes. At most other schools, undergrad chemistry majors can take an ‘advanced organic’ course that bridges from sophomore organic (the material for MCAT) and graduate-level organic. Stanford just doesn’t have that course, and I don’t think they ever have…
Look into the biochemistry and bioengineering courses too to see if they fit your interests. Also, a lot of learning is done through deep involvement in research and independent curiosity-driven reading.
For undergraduate research experience in chemistry, you’d find excellent opportunities at schools such as Swarthmore, Hamilton and Bowdoin. As suggested above, look for sequences such as those in advanced organic chemistry as an indicator of course breadth and depth. If you believe you are qualified to get into schools this selective, you should seriously consider them.