@warblersrule, in addition posting #34, which includes PHD data from the NSF, already confirmed that same number per thousand from both Amherst and Princeton go on to achieve PHD’s. The bias for either type or school isn’t supported by the data - learning environments are a personal preference.
@Chembiodad , are you implying that LAC’s send more people to Wall Street and Silicon Valley than UPenn? I would argue that opposite is true, and that is the only reason why LAC’s might achieve same number of Phd’s on paper as top universities.
Not every graduate school is same. Schools like Princeton and Upenn continuously send students to very top math graduate schools, reasons are laid out in this thread and in parallel thread. If your goal to receive Phd from any university, LAC is a decent choice. If you want to go to top ten graduate school, your best bet is to go to university.
Also, you can not summarize it as just learning environments are personal preference. There is one factor not related to learning environment - universities offer more depth and breadth.
@Aymyrat, no I am not arguing more, I am saying the number per thousand is likely similar. We already went through the depth and breadth exercise in a separate thread - http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/2029587-williams-colleges-career-placement-wall-street-and-top-graduate-schools.html#latest
Amherst’s top 25% students achieved a 780 Math SAT score, Penn’s achieved an 800. Both Amherst and Penn offer the same number of 300 and 400 level math courses. There are just many more Penn graduates as the school is 5x as large.
To say if you goal is to achieve a PHD from any university, a LAC is a decent choice simply isn’t supported by the facts - top colleges, whether an LAC or a university, produce top outcomes.
A great example is my brother who was a Comp Sci and History double major at Swarthmore - he loved both; he went on to get a CS MS and PHD from U of Washington - a top-10 program (#6 USNWR).
- SAT scores don't mean much, you can't say that because SAT scores are similar the quality of education also same.
- Even though SAT scores are close, science student body at MIT, Stanford and ivy league schools is definitely stronger, because they attract a lot of International Olympiad winners. You just can't score higher than 800, so random smart and hardworking student scores same as brilliant math guy who won gold at IMO, but there is a huge gap between them. In fact, most of science Olympiad winners score less than 800. I am IPhO bronze medalist and I scored 750 in Math II and 740 in Physics.
- Obviously graduate courses.
- Your brother is an outlier.
@Aymyrat, here’s a link to a WSJ ranking of top feeder schools based on actual results - I’m bailing as this is a silly discussion given actual data matters. http://collegematchus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/wsj_college_092503.pdf.
I would think that it would be odd that most science Olympiad winners score less than 800 on the Math II SAT 2; would be interested in the data as my DD scored 800 and attends a highly selective LAC studying STEM.
Here is a Swarthore letter to students
@Aymyrat, I always get a kick when people pick and choose sentences. Yes, the article from 2007 discusses cultural biases in academia and the extra effort a LAC may have to go through in the application process,
but it also confirms what I said the data supported “Any university faculty who follow national data know that top liberal arts colleges are particularly good percentagewise in educating future PhDs. Look at the information about this on my office door. During 1995-2004, Swarthmore ranked 4th in the nation in percentage of its science and engineering graduates who went on to get PhDs (behind only Cal Tech, Harvey Mudd and MIT, ahead of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Berkeley). Several other liberal arts colleges were very high too. Interest and success in getting PhDs is in the air at places like Swarthmore, so you can do well too. Some faculty at graduate programs tell us that many of their best students come from liberal arts colleges”.
@Chembiodad , should have said from my experience, but it’s not odd at all. Solving 50 easy problems is boring and requires good attention, science Olympiad participants are not well trained for that, they are used to solve just few very hard problems, though probably american ISO winners are better prepared. Also, if you are IMO winner, it doesn’t really matter whether your SAT math score is 800 or 700, everybody knows you are head and shoulder ahead of other students.
I pointed it out that part from Swarthmore letter, because I found it interesting that although they used to send students to top graduate schools, recently they failed to do so. Yes, they send students to Phd, but not to top Phd schools.
@Aymyrat, I can understand day to day monotony, but stepping up for a achievement exam should be a no-brainer.
Attached is Swarthmore’s post-graduation placement data for 2015-2017 https://www.swarthmore.edu/sites/default/files/assets/documents/career-services/Post%20Grad%20Plans%20by%20Major%202018%20White.pdf. The graduate school admissions are impressive across all majors.
Of the 12 Math majors that choose to pursue PHD’s immediately after undergraduate - 1 Cornell, 2 Harvard, 1 John Hopkins, 1 MIT, 1 Princeton, 1 Stanford, 1 Yale, 1 Washington.
Happy Thanksgiving all!
If we’re trying to comparing PhDs generated per 1000 math/stat majors, some of the top LACs seem to do very well … although the counting process is a little tricky and tedious, so I hesitate to draw very strong conclusions.
But FWIW I calculated rates for a number of schools. To make the process more manageable, let’s start with only those schools that are among the T10 universities and T10 LACs by absolute number of doctorates earned in a recent 5 year period (from NSF 2011-15 data). For just those schools, here are the PhD production rates I get, adjusted for the estimated number of math majors*:
Rate School
0.393 … Princeton University (393 earned math/stat doctorates per 1000 math/stat majors)
0.345 … Harvey Mudd College
0.280 … California Institute of Technology
0.130 … Swarthmore College
0.129 … Grinnell College
0.124 … Haverford College
0.123 … Stanford University
0.115 … Cornell University
0.106 … Massachusetts Institute of Technology
0.105 … Whitman College
0.103 … Williams College
0.100 … St. Olaf College
0.090 … Oberlin College
0.068 … Amherst College
0.060 … Pomona College
0.051 … University of California, Berkeley
0.050 … Carleton College
0.031 … University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
0.015 … University of California, Los Angeles
- To estimate the population of math majors for a multi-year cohort, I used the 2016-17 CDS number of undergraduates (section B) multiplied by the percentage of degrees conferred in math/stats (section J). This may not be a very good basis if enrollments and major preferences are changing significantly in directions or at rates that vary from school to school. It doesn't account for double-majors.
The above list misses some schools with high rates per 1000 majors since it includes only schools with the highest absolute number of earned doctorates. Georgia Tech, several T20 private universities, and several selective LACs all seem to have rates higher than Berkeley’s. Also, I could not find 2016-17 CDS files for UChicago and Harvard (which generated the second and third highest absolute number of math PhDs, respectively, after UC Berkeley), or for Columbia.
In terms of the range of rates or types of exposed schools, the above results do seem to be fairly consistent with findings for STEM PhD production rates in Table 4 of NSF 13-323 (https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13323/), which lists the top 50 U.S. baccalaureate-origin institutions of 2002–11 S&E doctorate recipients by institutional-yield ratio.
maybe some of these links will help.
- various info from Brian Leiter, eg http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2007/09/applying-to-philosophy-phd-programs.html
-posts of CC poster @b@r!um (& related),
eg #s 93,96,97,98, 107on this thread :
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1414683-prestige-versus-cost-p7.html
and #3 on this thread:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19617521#Comment_19617521
Other prior CC threads, e.g. :
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/14921135#Comment_14921135
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1315771-best-philosophy-undergrad-programs-in-the-us-p1.html
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/13136352#Comment_13136352
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/6300517#Comment_6300517