Best Universities for Math and Science

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
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<p>Hi, </p>

<p>I posted this under the general forum for University Searches but wanted to post under each respective university that I'm considering applying to in case I get more detailed responses. It would be great any of you could specifically respond to the MIT portion of this (although if you have friends/connections with people at other universities, feel free to comment on those also). </p>

<p>My query is as follows: </p>

<p>I'm a current Junior who has begun the college search and would like some advice with regards to which colleges might be a good fit for me. Firstly, let me describe a little about myself and what I'm looking for in a college. I'm a student who is looking for a top college which excels at math or science. I'm looking at colleges within both the US and England (which is where I'm from originally) and want small to medium sized college (preferably under 20,000 students). Also, the area I want to specialize most in is theoretical math (the sub-area I think I might want to specialize in is real/complex analysis (although that may change as I investigate higher level math). Therefore, I want a university with great theoretical mathematics options. Preferably I'd like to have some good humanities offerings (possibly getting a minor in philosophy), but I want my main focus to be in the math and science areas (maybe spending around 2/3 of my time in math & science and 1/3 in everything else). My eventual goal is to go to graduate school, get a PhD in mathematics and become a math professor. Therefore, I'd like a college which gives lots of research opportunities to undergrads and has a great math grad. program, so that I can begin research and graduate level courses as an undergrad.</p>

<p>Here are the current colleges I'm interested in (as my top choices- I obviously have some back-up options also) and some things which I really like and am concerned about with each:</p>

<p>1) MIT:</p>

<p>I've visited MIT twice now and love it each time I visit; the size and location also seem to suit me really well, and I know that it has a fantastic reputation. My one slight concern that I always have with MIT is that it seems to emphasize engineering/practical applications. Therefore, I was slightly worried about whether I'd fit in as I really want to emphasize theory and proofs, and it's my understanding that not that many MIT students go into the theoretical math track at least initially (in terms of not many taking the 18.014-18.024-18.034 to start their freshman careers). I've never been particularly into engineering/building things, so I'm just concerned about whether I fit with their whole mission of "Mind and Hand". Therefore, I still don't know what to think with regards to MIT as I really, really like it every time I visit, but just have this one doubt still.</p>

<p>2) Caltech</p>

<p>I haven't visited Caltech but have done a lot of research about it and know that it is more theoretically oriented than somewhere like MIT (in terms of requiring students to take more theoretical math/physics tracks). Therefore, I really like this theoretical emphasis as I feel like it aligns well with my goals. Also, I like the house system and small size of Caltech as I feel like I would fit in well with that system. I have just a couple of concerns with Caltech: 1) While I really like the small size, I am slightly concerned that it will mean that there will be fewer courses offered, so I may not have as much choice. 2) I've read in a lot of places that people aren't that impressed with Caltech's humanities offerings. While it's not where I want to specialize, I do really enjoy the humanities so would like somewhere which does have humanities courses of good caliber. 3) Caltech's location is not ideal for me as I currently have family on the East Coast and in England, so it's quite far away from them.</p>

<p>3) Princeton</p>

<p>Again, I haven't had the opportunity to visit, but it seems to potentially be a good fit for me. I love the look of their Advanced/Accelerated Freshman Sequence (MAT 216 and 218) as they seem to be great, intense intro. analysis classes (which hopefully, I should be able to handle as I'm independently working through some analysis material this year so will have had exposure to rigorous proofs by the time I'm attending).I also really like the look of their 4 part Analysis Series (MAT 325, MAT 335, MAT 425, and MAT 523) which I'd love to have completed by the end of my undergrad. career. Its location is also great in terms of being on the East Coast (and I'd get to be at the university where Fermat's Last Theorem was proven! ). My one concern with Princeton is that unlike Caltech and MIT, Princeton is not specifically oriented towards math or science, so while it has a great program, I'm just concerned that it won't have enough emphasis on math/science for me. I visited Harvard, and personally, found that it wasn't a good fit for me as their philosophy seemed to be more oriented towards liberal arts in lieu of depth in one specific area (which was more what I was looking for).</p>

<p>4) Carnegie Mellon:</p>

<p>I know that Carnegie Mellon also has a good reputation for math, and I like how I could really garner the depth that I want through their having no core classes and instead allowing students to go very deep into their chosen subject area. My one concern is similar to that with MIT in that I'm just wondering whether Carnegie Mellon will be too engineering oriented for my liking.</p>

<p>5) Other US universities:</p>

<p>The 4 above are just the universities that I think will be best suited to me, but there are also other top universities I'm considering applying to (such as University of Chicago, University of California Berkeley, Stanford, etc.). I'm also very amenable to any suggestions from members of the College Confidential community. From the extensive research I've done, I seem to be best fit for those above, but if there's another that anyone thinks I'd be better suited for, please suggest it. I also have back up universities as I know all of the above have a very, very low admit rate and are extremely competitive.</p>

<p>6) UK universities:</p>

<p>I'm also looking at universities in the UK (Oxford would be my top choice), but I'm also probably going to apply to Imperial College, University of Warwick, University College London (UCL), and King's College. I'm not posting more detailed information as I presume members of the College Confidential community won't be as familiar with the UK universities (but if anybody is, please feel free to post information).</p>

<p>In summary:</p>

<p>I'm looking for a university with a theoretical math/science orientation (particularly with analysis) and with a nerdy, collaborative student culture. My two big questions are: 1) Do the above universities seem to be good fits for what I'm looking for? Which of the above seems to fit me the best? and 2) Are there other universities that people think it's worth it for me to apply to that may be better than or as good fits as the above?</p>

<p>I recognize that people may be familiar with only one or two of the universities where they have personally been a student but would appreciate any information at all that any of you could give me!</p>

<p>Thanks so much in advance!</p>

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<p>A lot of people I know majoring in 18 - theoretical don’t take 18.014-18.024 since they already know calculus to a fundamental level. They’ll often take 18.100B/C, 18.701, 18.702, 18.901, and more generally, anything in the 18.1xx and 18.7xx range. I took 18.100B and 18.701 (however I’m 18C - math w/ CS), and analysis/algebra are not my strong suits. 18.701 was pretty fun though.</p>

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<p>@MITer94‌ - I highly appreciate your response. Thanks for clarifying why more people aren’t in the 18.014, 18.024, 18.034 sequence. It’s clear that you’ve done some theoretical math at MIT, so would you recommend MIT for theoretical math or would you say that the vast majority of students do focus on engineering? I absolutely love MIT every time I visit but am just trying to gauge whether it’s the right place for somebody not at all interested in engineering but incredibly invested in theoretical math/science (particularly with mathematical analysis). I’d really, really appreciate it if you could let me know whether you think it might be the right place or whether I should be looking somewhere with a more theoretical emphasis (such as Caltech). </p>

<p>Thank you so much once again for your response!</p>

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<p>MIT and Caltech both have a huge number of offerings in math, science, and engineering. Even with Caltech’s small size, they probably have more offerings in these areas than any other school in the country or are tied with MIT. So don’t worry about that. It’s true that both don’t have as many humanities offerings as universities where people are more likely to have a primary major in the humanities. Some people do augment this area with cross-registration at Harvard (open to all MIT students) or cross-registration at the other Claremont Colleges (open to all Caltech students.) It does require some extra effort to do this, and I’m not sure how convenient this is. There is not really a humanities vibe at either MIT or Harvard, despite having some people who were passionate about it in high school. It’s just kind of a feeling you get from the students and the campus. However, if you enjoyed the campus, this may be a non-issue. It is true that Caltech has a more theoretical vibe among the students compared to MIT students, who tend to be more engineering or tech business focused. However, this is only true when you look at the non-math majors. At MIT and elsewhere, the focus of the student body in general is not reflective of the emphasis of the math majors. </p>

<p>I was surprised you put Oxford as your first choice considering your interests. I’m not well-versed in UK colleges, but I’ve always heard that Oxford was only good at the humanities and that Cambridge is where you go if you are interested in math or science.</p>

<p>You will find plenty of people who are interested in theory. MIT has the most people in the country that place in the top 50 at the Putnam contest (with Harvard a close #2.) Harvard is also a top destination for people interested in theory; I have heard that Math 55 is a little too hard for people who aren’t very advanced coming in (on international math olympics teams), so you might consider taking a different sequence if you end up there. It’s very difficult to get into Harvard as a math major without those credentials. Most of the students at Harvard do not approach school with the same focus as the math majors, so you were right about harvard students in general having focus elsewhere.</p>

<p>Also, remember that internationals have it tougher than domestic applicants, so cast your net widely if you are an international student.</p>

<p>U. of Chicago is an excellent choice given your interests in theoretical math and the humanities.<br>
Duke has a pretty good Putnam team, so I’d imagine their theory classes would have to be pretty good. Actually, you might take a look at the putnam team placings to get a gauge where top people have gone. Or look at the grad school rankings; grad school classes are pretty rigorous in math as opposed to the sciences, where many programs just want their students in the lab. So the grad classes can be important to an advanced undergrad. I know U. of Michigan has a great grad math program. There was a guy, handle mathboy, who used to post here and he was a Berkeley math major. I think he was happy with his classes, although I’ve heard from a Berkeley math PhD student that they are not great for undergrads (v. large classes, etc.) It will also help if the school has a good grad program, because then your recommendations would come from leaders in the field and would have more weight. </p>

<p>I don’t think of Stanford or Carnegie Mellon as great places for math, but I’d imagine they get some good math students (especially the former.) Carnegie Mellon is more known for computer science and fine arts, and these parts of the community are pretty separated. </p>

<p>From your description of your interests, it sounds like U. of Chicago would be an excellent choice because of the rigor and emphasis of the student body on theory (both in the humanities and in technical areas). They have a T-shirt there that says, “Yeah, but how does it work in theory”. That is, most of the time people evaluate theories on their ability to apply to the real world; the joke is that at U. of Chicago, it is reversed. However, if you got a good vibe from MIT when visiting, then maybe you would like it there too.</p>

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<p>Stop reposting this same long post…</p>

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<p>Duke hasn’t had that great of a Putnam team for while. It’s definitely a good school for math, but I wouldn’t apply there based on 10-year-old Putnam results.</p>

<p>Both MIT and CalTech are excellent places for someone interested in pure math. The idea that MIT has a practical emphasis and CalTech has a theoretical emphasis is kind of a generalization, and there are quite a few people at MIT that are interested in mostly the theoretical side of their subject, especially in math.</p>

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<p>Intparent, why should the OP not post? So what if the same post is repeated? In the days of print, a repeat would use up newspaper space. But that is not really a concern here. The OP is apparently posting at each school-great idea!</p>

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<p>Repetitive posts are against the TOS for the site. And that is what the College Search & Selection forum is for, to allow discussion across colleges. For those who watch and respond to “latest posts”, it is quite annoying. Plus, posters on one thread can’t see what others have said, making the discussions somewhat repetitive in themselves. </p>

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<p>Collegealum314, you are simply wrong about Oxford = only humanities and Cambridge = only math / science. While Cambridge does have more science/tech areas in which it outranks Oxford, a) outranked does not = no good, and b) the inverse is also true. For example, Cambridge is currently ranked 3rd in the world for life sciences & medicine and Oxford 1st. </p>

<p>Current rankings suggest that Cambridge outranks Oxford for math (both the Guardian and the Complete University Guide rank Cambridge #1, with a score of 100, v Oxfords #2 ranking score of 95.9/97), but it’s not exactly a huge difference. </p>

<p>For the history of this rivalry, you can amuse yourself reading “The “Oxford for humanities, Cambridge for sciences” myth” on Wikipedia.</p>

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<p>Some comments from a current MIT junior math major:
(1) Even though MIT generally has a more applied emphasis I’m reasonably confident it still has the most top-notch pure math people of any US college. Even the pure math people at MIT are often also interested in CS which I think is somewhat different from most other schools.
(2) Although Caltech is generally known for theory it’s applied math is probably better than its pure math. In terms of math you will probably find enough choice although choice in terms of humanities might be limiting.
(3) I don’t know much about Princeton but Princeton math is certainly very good.
(4) I don’t think CMU is particularly known for math. The students at CMU are also on average weaker than the other schools although it is easier to get into.
(5) Berkeley, Stanford, and Chicago all have very good math departments and a large amount of undergraduate math talent. I think the pure math people at Chicago are particularly pure (may or may not be a good thing). All are all decent in terms of humanities as well. NYU and UCLA have probably the best math departments of schools that aren’t top 10 research universities. Both are more known for applied stuff although I think they are good at analysis as well. Williams College is a very different option but is also well known for pure math.</p>

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<p>The OP is talking out both sides of his or her mouth a little. On the one hand, the OP says s/he wants to take as much of 1/3 of courses outside the STEM areas, but on the other hand worries that Harvard and Princeton are insufficiently STEM-focused because they have so many humanities and social science people running around.</p>

<p>OP, if you want to take good courses outside of STEM, you have to go someplace where there are people who think those areas are as important as you think math is. And you don’t need, or even want, a place where there are thousands of math undergraduates. Scores of them are plenty. (Which, by the way, is what most places will have, counting applied math people. Chicago may be the only college you mentioned with hundreds of theoretical math majors, and even that’s a distortion because it doesn’t really have a separate applied math program.) You also want great faculty and grad students, of course, and then you have the really vibrant intellectual community in which you can really grow and flourish. The fact that there are dozens of other vibrant intellectual communities near by, focused on other things, ought to be something of a plus for your life and education, not a minus. At the very least, you may occasionally want to date someone who is not a departmental rival!</p>

<p>If what you really want is an all-encompassing math focus, go to England. You can attend a few lectures about literature or history if you want, but no one will make you take a course that isn’t relevant to your math interests. In the US, although there is some variation along the spectrum, everywhere, even Caltech, will require some degree of formal study outside your major field of interest. At Caltech it will be about half a year’s worth; everywhere else, it will be more like a year, or a little more – i.e., not more than the 1/3 you say you want.</p>

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<p>Caltech requires you to take 12 humanities classes. They are on the quarter system with three quarters per academic year (summer is the fourth), so that is roughly the same as a year’s worth of classes. Basically, you take one humanities class a term and probably 3 technical classes. At MIT, you are required to take 8 humanities classes, so that is like 1/4 of your time. </p>

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<p>^ I should add that MIT is on the semester system with the typical classload of 4 classes per term, so 8 classes is like a year of classes.</p>

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<p>Look at the offerings at Caltech/MIT: sci fi lit, technical writing, historical science (not saying that right, but you get the idea). Psychology at Caltech had a fabulous prof;I went to her students’ poster board presentations. She really understood her students and their interests. </p>

<p>My point; look at the class offerings at these tech schools, and I feel sure you will find courses that interest you.</p>

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<p>Slight correction to Collegealum314’s post:</p>

<p>Some people do augment this area with cross-registration at Harvard (open to all MIT students) or cross-registration at the other Claremont Colleges (open to all Caltech students.)</p>

<p>I think you meant ‘Harvey Mudd’ since Caltech is not part of The Claremont Colleges.</p>

<p>BTW to OP: You should consider adding Mudd to your list…right up your alley! Though not as big or well-known as MIT/Caltech, its undergrad math/science programs are on par with both, and you could satisfy your intellectual
curiosity for top-notch humanities course, or course in any discipline for that matter, by taking classes at Pomona, Claremont McKenna, or any of the 5 C’s.</p>

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<p>Yeah I don’t buy the argument that non-STEM classes at MIT are uniformly bad. At MIT it is worth dividing the non-STEM departments into two categories: (1) highly ranked departments with graduate students (4,11,14,17,24, CMS) and (2) departments with no graduate departments (anything 21). Departments in the first category have at least a couple majors per years and oftentimes many more and will provide an education roughly as good as anywhere else in those fields although course selection may be rather limited. Classes from departments in the second category can be good although student interest is often low. There are also some significant holes in MIT’s offerings with virtually no classes in classics, sociology, psychology or other small humanities fields. Depending on how well your interests align with MIT’s non-STEM strengths you may or may not find MIT offers the non-STEM experience you seek. At Caltech the situation is much worse with Caltech’s non-STEM strengths being limited to a handful of subfields in economics and political science. </p>

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<p>^When I was at the Caltech meeting for admits, they mentioned that people could cross-register at the Claremont Colleges. I didn’t mean to imply that Caltech was also a Claremont College.</p>

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<p>The distance between Caltech and the Claremont Colleges is about 25 miles. I can’t imagine too many students take advantage of the ability to cross-register–it would be very inconvenient. On the other hand, the distance between Harvard and MIT is about 1 mile. </p>

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<p>I doubt many, if any, students cross register between Caltech and the Claremont Colleges. They don’t even mention this as an option to Claremont consortium students, and my kid at Mudd has never mentioned having a Caltech person in any of their classes. I think you go to Caltech because you want Caltech from a technology perspective. My kid didn’t apply to Caltech, and chose Mudd partly because she didn’t want to give up her humanities interests. </p>

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<p>@UMTYMP student, you are right as far as you go in Post #15, but it really comes across as faint praise. There are actually many Course 21 degree-holders (usually double majors), as well as STS (not on your list- the impact of science and technology on society). To cite a school with Noam Chomsky and A.R.Gurney on Faculty as “not terrible” is an understatement. The courses in such subjects as French New Wave Cinema, where auters are studied with vitality, and in creative writing can be very substantive and involved (in addition to the courses in course 24, Chomsky’s department, or playwriting in course 21 when Gurney was there). And, yes @motherbear332, Harvard is only a mile away, but cross-registration at Harvard and BU is not as interesting in many classes as taking the convenient regular MIT-Wellesley College bus out to the suburbs and taking courses at Wellesley College (which is also administratively much simpler, and encouraged).</p>