Best value; least debt stats meaningless?

Paying for College
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<p>Princeton Review/USA Today's Top Value colleges include Ivies and elites like Williams and Swarthmore. The average debt upon graduation for these schools is like $8 - 12 thousand dollars. They pay 100% of your need! Endowment in the billions! Whoopie!</p>

<p>Meanwhile, our EFA indicates we can somehow afford more than half of the years' costs (over $25,000 a year). Barring a visit from the money fairy, that figure is impossible for us. We don't have extenuating circumstances. Our child has no hook. These schools do not give merit scholarships. Even if we came up with every cent they expect us to contribute, we would still leave the undergrad years with over $100,000 in debt. Quite a bit above the schools' averages.</p>

<p>Sadly, my daughter looked at the numbers from these schools and these lists and got extremely excited. "See? The average debt graduating from Williams is $8,000! I can do that!" Not for the first time, I had to burst her bubble. Who are these people who only owe that much? Either kids from wealthy families or kids who have extremely low EFCs. For the average joe family like us, well, we simply can't afford to send her to a $50k-plus school unless they offer generous merit aid. It makes me mad that they publish misleading statistics like this, giving false hope to average income kids.</p>

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<p>Those statistics are meaningless to me, and I go to one of the schools on the best value list!</p>

<p>I personally have an EFC of 0, and I’ll probably graduate with a debt around $20,000. Far from said average. A close friend of mine is also from a low income family at the same school as myself, and will probably graduate with $25,000 in loan debt.</p>

<p>Maybe I’m an exceptinon, maybe my school’s average is a little more. But even the low EFC students don’t always graduate with what’s been reported, sadly.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you and your daughter, though.</p>

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<p>The reported debt doesn’t include parent loans. In many cases it doesn’t include private loans. So, yes, the figures do not reflect the experience of many individuals. </p>

<p>Many of us cannot meet our family EFC, which explains why Happykid and her pals are studying at the community college. Now that you know your EFC, you need to figure out how much you actually are able to pay for your daughter’s education. Then you need to help her come up with a list of colleges/universities that are affordable for your family.</p>

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<p>Those stats are meaningless for those who have unaffordable EFCs.</p>

<p>Those stats do not include Parent Plus loans, private loans, etc. </p>

<p>Since you have an unaffordable EFC, then you might need to consider other schools where your child will get big merit for stats…at least as financial safety schools.</p>

<p>Now is the time to have “the talk” with your child. Tell her how much you can safely contribute each year (do underestimate the amount a bit).</p>

<p>Explain that federal student loans are limited to the following amounts…
frosh year $5500
soph year $6500
Jr year $7500
Sr year $7500</p>

<p>Tell her that she can apply to a couple of “financial reach” schools just to see what will happen, but not to fall in love with any of them because they are very unlikely. </p>

<p>She will have to find some financial safety schools…these are schools that will give her ASSURED big merit for her stats that when added to your affordable contribution and her student loan will cover her costs.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that merit scholarships do NOT reduce EFC unless the amount is greater than “need”…</p>

<p>For instance…</p>

<p>$55,000 School Cost of Attendance of a private U
$25,000 EFC
$30,000 “determined need”</p>

<p>Aid package…
$10,000 merit per year
$5,500 in student loans</p>

<h2>$14,500k grant</h2>

<p>$25,500 in FA package…</p>

<p>You’d still have to pay $25k EFC and student has loans</p>

<p>So…If a school gives you $10k per year merit scholarship, then that will just go towards “need” and your $25k EFC stays the same. </p>

<p>Here’s a better alternative…</p>

<p>$35,000 School Cost of Attendance of an out of state public or cheaper private
$25,000 EFC
$10,000 “determined need”</p>

<p>Aid package…
$20,000 merit per year (for instance, a free tuition scholarship)</p>

<h2>$5,500 in student loans</h2>

<p>$25,500 in FA package.</p>

<p>Since the school has a COA of $35k and your aid package is worth $25,500, then all you have to pay is $9500. You’ve reduced your EFC by more than half. :)</p>

<p>Obviously, the last example also would work at a more expensive school if the merit scholarship is commensurately bigger.</p>

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<p>I agree, MO2k, the only guaranteed way to afford a college education is to attend an affordable school. Daughter , dh and I have had the hard talk, but then she went and read the hype about debt and value “100% need met” and “need blind” and “affordable ivies” and swallowed it hook, line and sinker. That, and extreme wishful thinking and denial. Reality has led her to realize she has to let go of some dreams. Now she has to learn that letting go does not necessarily have to have a bad ending. But no matter how you slice it, you don’t get the truth behind these financial stats until you read the very tiny print.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>LOL…</p>

<p>What your D and many others don’t realize is that the SCHOOL gets to determine what your need is…not the family.</p>

<p>Families in situations like yours take a variety of approaches… I recommend something like…</p>

<p>1) Apply to a couple of financial reaches just to see what happens.</p>

<p>2) Apply to a couple of match/safety schools with will have competitive merit.</p>

<p>3) Apply to a couple of financial safety schools that give ASSURED BIG merit for stats.</p>

<p>4) Apply to a couple of “parent pick” schools - these are schools that the child is reluctant to apply to, but the parents want to see what happens. Parents do need to realize and accept that the child may still not want to go there. </p>

<p>What is your D’s major?</p>

<p>What financial safety schools are you looking at? Do they give ASSURED merit for stats?</p>

<p>How much do you feel comfortable paying each year?</p>

<p>On another thread you mention that your D has an ACT 33. That is high enough for big merit at some schools.</p>

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<p>The loan stats mean something, but not the way you are interpreting them. </p>

<p>They are a way to get a sense in comparing one school to another of how much of the need-based aid is weighted toward loans as opposed to grants. They don’t tell you what kind of aid you will get – but if you know that you will definitely qualify for need based aid, they give you some indication as tho how the aid package will likely be structured. </p>

<p>Looking at the stats for Ivies is a waste of time because those schools are very proud of their no-loan policies and very forthcoming about what they offer.</p>

<p>But it is helpful when you are comparing other schools. For example, where are you likely to get a better aid package, Univ. of Chicago, or Vanderbilt? </p>

<p>Well we can see that the average debt at graduation for Chicago is $24,238, Vandy $19,563 – so that tells us that Chicago is likely to put more loans, less grants in the package. </p>

<p>This is particularly important when you keep in mind that the maximum available for subsidized Staffords over 4 years is $19,000 – since the only debt being reported on the common data set is student debt, then anything above $19K tell you that the school is packaging aid in such a way that includes debt above and beyond the max. for subsidized Stafford. For some students that may include Perkins loans (subsidized), or unsubsidized staffords.</p>

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<p>I think the real issue is that the family doesn’t think that they can afford their EFC. And, they may only know their FAFSA EFC…not their CSS Profile which can be higher.</p>

<p>Cornell is an ivy and DOES put loans in FA packages. I don’t think Cornell is the only ivy that puts loans in FA packages. HYP do not, but not sure about the others.</p>

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<p>Maybe the biggest problem is not ‘how are we going to pay for this’ but will she apply and get accepted and enroll in a school that she both loves and can afford. Wait, that’s most of us, isn’t it! My daughter is planning on majoring in Physics and Astronomy, and at this point would like to get a PhD in Astrophysics, however, a change in path is possible, seeing as she’s only 17. We are limited to colleges in the Northeast, and possibly Eastern Ontario and Quebec (Queen’s U and McGill). Some on her list do have automatic scholarships. I know she’s bummed with the reality check I gave her. I know we’re both bummed that the average debt stat doesn’t apply to her.</p>

<p>On the other hand, how can I be boo-hooing about not qualifying for more aid? It means we’re solvent, have a nice roof over our heads and pay our bills.</p>

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<p>we’re both bummed that the average debt stat doesn’t apply to her.</p>

<p>Frequently, the “average” stats at a school isn’t of much value. For instance, at my kids’ college, the average merit based scholarship is $6,119. However, your D would get an assured scholarship worth full tuition. So, there’s another example of how average stats are meaningless.</p>

<p>*
On the other hand, how can I be boo-hooing about not qualifying for more aid? It means we’re solvent, have a nice roof over our heads and pay our bills. *</p>

<p>:)</p>

<p>Good attitude to have…</p>

<p>At least your D has the stats to get some big automatic scholarships to reduce your EFC to a manageable number. :)</p>

<p>I feel for the kids who have good, but not high stats, who have unaffordable EFCs. They often have no choice but to commute to a local school since their stats aren’t high enough for big merit. </p>

<p>Here’s a link to ASSURED SCHOLARSHIPS given for stats… </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Obviously, some aren’t in the northeast, but perhaps if the scholarship is big enough, it can justify a further distance. </p>

<p>*Maybe the biggest problem is not ‘how are we going to pay for this’ but will she apply and get accepted and enroll in a school that she both loves and can afford. *</p>

<p>I think if you can encourage her to be open-minded and at least visit other schools that would be affordable - including those with honors colleges - she may find a “home”. :)</p>

<p>Sometimes high stats kids mistakenly think that if they don’t go to pricey elite schools that they won’t have challenging classmates and smart classmates. The truth is that there are very smart kids at most schools…AND…smart kids tend to cluster in certain majors…engineering, the sciences, math, etc. So, even if some students in other majors across campus have lower stats, who cares. Right?</p>

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<p>

It could also mean that Vandy is around $1200/yr cheaper than Chicago. Or it could mean that the average EFC of Vandy students is $1200 higher.</p>

<p>And “average” can mean half the kids have no loans, but the other half have double the average. Unless you know which half you are in, the average isn’t very helpful.</p>

<p>So I tend to think that particular statistic is pretty useless.</p>

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<p>But it doesn’t mean that, because schools typically build their financial aid packages with loans first.</p>

<p>So if student #1 qualifies for $3500 in financial aid and student #2 qualifies for $15,000 in aid, it is likely that BOTH students will have at least $3500 in loans as part of their aid package. But student #2 is likely to have work study and a college grant on top of the loans.</p>

<p>That is why the “average grant” part is meaningless, but the “average loan” part does tell you something. Whatever need based aid you are likely to get will include that loan part.</p>

<p>I’d also add that for purposes of reporting - because they are only talking about need-based student loans (not parent loans, not outside private loans), the loan figure is essentially capped whereas the grant figure is not.</p>

<p>Going back to the Chicago v. Vandy comparison, we can also see that both schools purport to meet 100% of financial need – on the stats posted at the College Board site, Chicago gave aid to roughly 51% of its students, whereas Vandy gave aid to about 46% – Chicago’s average aid package was $39K, with an average freshman year loan of $4367 – whereas Vandy’s average package was $41K, with an average first year loan of $238. </p>

<p>So it doesn’t matter that Vandy is cheaper than Chicago – they are giving their students higher grants than Chicago, and they clearly are avoiding first year loans. If you are going to draw a conclusion about average EFC, then you would have to conclude that the Vandy students have a lower EFC, because they get larger financial aid packages and larger grants – and because a much higher percentage of financial aid apps at Vandy are adjudges to have need. </p>

<p>But again – the point isn’t what the “average” is, the point is that these “average” figures tell you how the college typically packages its financial aid in terms of the loan percentage, if you know how to read the stats.</p>

<p>Here are the links to relevant info for Vandy & Chicago:</p>

<p>[College</a> Search - Vanderbilt University - Vandy - Cost & Financial Aid](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)
[College</a> Search - University of Chicago - Chicago - Cost & Financial Aid](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)</p>

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<p>Vandy is no-loan, btw.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>[Vanderbilt</a> Expanded Aid Program | No Need-Based Loans | Student Debt Reduction | Office of Student Financial Aid](<a href=“http://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/expanded-aid-program.php]Vanderbilt”>http://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/expanded-aid-program.php)</p>

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<p>Why? (There are schools below the Mason Dixon line that also offer merit money.)</p>

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<p>bluebayou: Of course there are exceptional schools outside of the Northeast. We are limited for many reasons, including lacking the “cabbage” to transport and visit.</p>

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<p>*Of course there are exceptional schools outside of the Northeast. We are limited for many reasons, including lacking the “cabbage” to transport and visit. *</p>

<p>I understand… :)</p>

<p>However, if a school was within all day’s drive and hotel stay and would give an ASSURED big scholarship to your D (such as free tuition) which would cut your EFC down to below $15k per year, wouldn’t that be worth a trip to visit? </p>

<p>Actually, if a school could give your child free tuition, and your child took out a $5500 per year student loan, your parent contribution could be less than $10k per year!!! How does that sound!</p>

<p>Apologies for being so blunt, but if you can’t afford such a visit, how are you going to afford your $25k+ EFC each year ($100k for 4 years)? </p>

<p>I would think it would be worth the few hundred bucks in gas and cheap hotel to find out if my kid would like a school that would cut your EFC in half.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t recommend that for a school with competitive merit, but I would for schools that give assured HUGE merit for stats. A circle road trip that would include 2-3 of those schools may have a huge return on initial investment. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>The problem that I see is this…there aren’t many big assured merit scholarships in the NE. NE schools seem to be more “need based”. </p>

<p>BTW…did your D make NMSF? (or did we ask that already?? LOL)</p>

<p>*but the “average loan” part does tell you something. *</p>

<p>It only tells you what the average federal student loans are. If the school gaps aid or the parents can’t afford their EFC, it doesn’t tell you if Plus loans have been taken to cover gaps or unaffordable EFCs. It also doesn’t tell you if private loans have been taken, if credit cards have been used, and/or if loans from relatives have taken place.</p>

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<p>To OP: the need-only schools are generally going to require you to pay at least your FAFSA EFC. There are a few exceptions, but generally you can assume that to be the bottom line.</p>

<p>Since you say you can’t pay your FAFSA EFC, that means that your d. either has to find a school that costs less (in state public, perhaps) – or your d. needs to find merit money.</p>

<p>As a general rule of thumb, the farther you venture away geographically, the higher the merit money will be. Obviously there are many exceptions, but colleges like geographic diversity in their student bodies – so if you want money for your daughter’s college, you might start by drawing a circle 1000 miles wide around where you live, and then looking at schools outside that circle. </p>

<p>The cost of travel is cheap compared to the cost of college tuition. And you do NOT have to visit colleges before applying – your d. can cast a wide net, rely on other resources to get a sense of various colleges, and make her final selection down the line you’ve shaved down the list to schools which are affordable.</p>

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<p>

.</p>

<p>There are other reasons, as I mentioned. Good point though. </p>

<p>My daughter missed the PSAT because she took it as a sophomore and she did do well we didn’t think she needed to re-take it. Makes my blood pressure rise just to think of it.</p>

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<p>*The cost of travel is cheap compared to the cost of college tuition. And you do NOT have to visit colleges before applying – your d. can cast a wide net, rely on other resources to get a sense of various colleges, and make her final selection down the line you’ve shaved down the list to schools which are affordable. *</p>

<p>Very good point.</p>

<p>and…I know at my kids’ college, those who are selected as finalists for their 2 elite honors programs are reimbursed for their travel costs for the interview. Hotel and food are also provided.</p>

<p>*There are other reasons, as I mentioned. *</p>

<p>Did I overlook those other reasons? I only saw cost as a reason. But, I’ve been known to miss stuff all the time. LOL</p>

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<p>You’re not losing it this time! I didn’t enumerate. But honestly, it does amaze me when I hear about kids visiting schools in Texas, California, Alabama, :^) Trying to decide between UNC and Harvey Mudd, and schools all over the place. Most of the hicks around here have a radius of 3 to 6 hours driving time to which they’ll even allow their kids to apply. </p>

<p>I’m actually all for D applying to a school or 2 at a distance that appeal to her, especially those who might give a good package, “just to see.” Lots of factors to weigh before any such decision is made.</p>