As mentioned previously, community colleges exist to serve a broad base of students. Some students are academically challenged but want to be there, others are reasonably intelligent but lacking in motivation (there because their parents demand it), some are geographically bound by family and/or jobs, and some have no other options financially. Likewise, the academic rigor of the classes varies, but this is true at four year schools as well.
For those who are willing to engage with other students and faculty, cc can be a rich experience where they gain confidence and move on to meaningful work or education at a four year school. Someone up thread mentioned poor graduation rates. It is true that graduation rates are low at community colleges and that is due to a wide variety of reasons - stop outs because of personal/family issues, those who run out of financial aid because of poor academic performance, some transfer prior to graduation, etc., etc.
Many ccs are engaging in a variety of tools and programs to reach out to students who are struggling academically. My system uses a tool called Starfish to identify students who need tutoring or who are at risk for poor attendance. Our campus is involved the Achieving the Dream initiative to assist minority students in completion.
All that is said to make the point that you can’t pigeonhole students or schools. I was fortunate to send my own two children to a top 20 school, but I have more than 25 years of experience at the other end of the spectrum. Like life, education is what you make of it and there is no one universal conclusion. Some of the experience is just due to luck. Last fall I had one of the best introductory classes in my teaching discipline that I’ve ever had. Still a significant number of students performed poorly, but I believe the above average number of strong students helped carry the B & C students to a better understanding of the material. This spring the “mix” is just not as strong and I can’t make up for the “X” factor of low student engagement. That happens at four year schools, too.
NYS has an excellent college system. Our cc’s do have open enrollment, but that doesn’t mean all the students who enroll are academically challenged. Many NY families fall into that donut hole where they earn too much to get need based aid but not enough to be full pay at a sleep away college. Their children have above average stats but not high enough to get costs down to what they can reasonably afford, so the kids start at cc. Many do go on to 4-year schools (IS publics as well as selective private colleges). Some stop with a bachelor’s but others go on to grad school. I have a relative who started at one of our cc’s but whose final degree is from Harvard. I don’t see anything wrong with starting at a cc, working hard, and moving on from there. But maybe other states’ cc systems aren’t as good as ours.
I agree that it all depends. If you’ve got a kid whose problem is motivation, sticking him in the back row of a big lecture class may not serve him as well as a CC where the classes are much smaller and the instructor knows him. CCs and less selective 4-year schools vary, too. Some CCs are full of striving immigrants; some less selective 4-year schools are full of the laziest and dumbest upper-middle-class kids.
Not only is it impossible to generalize across states, but in my state, you can’t generalize from one CC to another in the same region. We have awesome and terrible ones.
These responses have provided a lot of clarity for me. I find it hard to rely on statistical studies of any kind to guide decisions in a particular circumstance. These types of studies too often allow people to rely on generalized conclusions, and worse, allow people to push agendas - when, in reality, “scientific conclusions” may or may not apply to particular individuals in particular situations.
The community college vs. 4-year college decision must be made by taking into consideration a variety of factors, which people have eloquently listed here. To outright, universally conclude that a student is better off being the worst student at a 4-year college than going to a community college is doing a disservice to many, many individual students.
After completing her AA and transferring to a State U, Happykid reported that she could tell who in her department were CC grads, and who weren’t. She felt that the CC grads were more focused, and self-reliant than the students who had started as freshmen at that U. This may be a function of her field of study (technical theatre), the specific CC and U, or even just Happykid’s circle of friends.
“She felt that the CC grads were more focused, and self-reliant”
To me, this is associated with transferring. It was true of my transfer classmates as compared to our classmates who’d started as freshmen, even though only one out of our 55 came from a community college.
People who go out of their way to start over as sophomores and juniors are a pretty motivated group. Transferring is a big pain. It’s hard. It’s almost never the path of least resistance. You can see that when you look at transfer performance.
Transfer students are often a little older and wiser (?) than their classmates, also. My firstborn did a semester at an urban community college after withdrawing from a conservatory BFA program. He is now at a large university, where he appears to be thriving. He would not have had the motivation and focus to succeed in a big school three years ago. He also has a cohort of arts-oriented friends whom he spends most of his social time with, but he’s ready for a more traditional college education now. Staying home to attend our local CC after high school would have been the worst imaginable scenario for him, but CCs are one of the most important resources we have for providing higher education to as many students as want it.
A good community college isn’t necessarily a lesser choice than a university. At a large university, students will often be in class with hundreds. I know, they have recitation sections. It’s not the same as being one of 25 or 30 students who get to know their prof. I worked with hundreds of cc transfers into a large u environment. Most of them were well prepared for the transition.
The article is pretty clear that this is about marginal students.
I think that strong motivated students with good study skills can make the CC to 4 year school thing work. But for kids who have shown themselves to be distracted and disorganized in high school, or who don’t respond well to academic pressure, or who need learning support, CC can be a really tough place. Rather than being surrounded by peers who are also working towards a 4 year degree, they’re in classes with people who have really different experiences, so there isn’t the same peer pressure and modeling. In addition, if a kid take the first year at a 4 year school to get his feet under him, take some easy electives, and learn how to study, he’s got 3 more years to recover, bring up his GPA and fulfill his major requirements. On the other hand, if he does the same thing at CC, then he’s likely blown his chances at a guaranteed transfer and a 4 year degree.
Being at a university, with all its temptations and challenges, can be overwhelming for an 18 year old. CC is a great alternative, and a fine place to learn study skills.
Given that the Us aren’t likely to suddenly lower their cut-offs then the real questions have to do with changes necessary in the CCs to promote better graduation rates for students who miss the Us’ cut-offs. Certainly it isn’t likely that the Us are going to suddenly become open admission just to provide access to anyone who wants to start out there in that somehow better environment. The Us would have nowhere to put everyone.
I would say no. The community college experience can be a good one.
I personally did not have a cohesive HS experience (hence why I’m having some issues helping my son choose the “best” HS classes/paths, etc), but ended up actually being very successful myself. How?
I had a HS transcript not fit to wipe with (family strife, though, I was never in trouble myself, etc.)
I went to community college and took the most challenging classes possible, graduating with an A.S. and 3.9ish GPA.
3)Transferred to 4-year -extremely- competitive state school after receiving A.S. degree. Wouldn’t have had a prayer getting in 2 years prior.
Finished 4-year degree summa cum laude and was accepted into graduate school at #1 program choice at another school.
Doctorate. Health Sciences.
It can be done!
All this hand-wringing over college - I’m doing it myself for my son, but I secretly know that once you get started in CC and do well, nothing can stop you.
EDIT: so my answer would be – it’s better to start at the community college BY FAR; then, you can get into a school that would have been perhaps a dream a few years prior.
^^^^ That’s a very useful story, @Belkcom!! I know it’s just anecdotal, but this is the type of story that I think can be told by many CC grads who are truly motivated. And if the student is not motivated, not sure what the expensive 4-year school will gain that student in many cases.
I also want to say a couple more things, then, because I really believe in the community college system, as both a money-saver and confidence builder, and also even for those who find themselves “adrift”.
The teachers at the CC seemed to want to be there. There were only 24-28 students per class. The quality of the instruction was amazing. Exceedingly warm and welcoming atmosphere (overall).
I was singularly focused on the health sciences and biology, and needed high-level math, biology, chemistry, and organic chemistry to compete (or even be in the running, really). I took all of my organic chemistry, biology, and gen chem there, with amazing teachers with PhDs and 24 students to a class! Looking back, it almost doesn’t seem real, haha - especially with what I’ve seen since at -both- my 4-yr and grad school. That being said, I made straight As in the classes, understood the concepts completely, and can still remember nearly every single major organic functional group, nomenclature, and ‘chaining’ reactions - all because of the one-on-one attention, their joy of teaching, and accessible office hours, etc.
haha @longtimeguest, I didn’t claim mine was the top in the nation (but I didn’t read back through the other comments, maybe you mean someone else), just that it was a great place. My 4-year university, though, was and is highly competitive. Only 2 students in my graduating HS class got in.
@prospect1 agree that not everyone was meant to go to college. I am specifically speaking of those people who, like me, lost their way for some period of time - perhaps through no fault of their own - and were motivated, excited, and determined. I must also mention I was in no way connected to my parents when I began - I was completely an adult learner (but still quite young).
It actually worked to my benefit, funnily enough, in one very important situation. Advancement and ‘dream jobs’ in my field are based on flying hither and yon to interview for residency positions. I was matched to a very competitive program, and the program director told me later it was --because-- I had gone to a community college and then risen through nearly just the sheer force of will to my graduate program that they ranked me as their highest choice. They liked the grit - they admired the journey.
So, yeah. It can happen. That being said, if your child wants to go to an Ivy or similarly high-ranking school, and is motivated, no.
But if your child is performing at the average level in HS, YES, they absolutely can spread their wings at the community college level and find their niche academically. CC agreed with me completely, and HS never did.
@LongTimeGuest Respectfully disagree. I lived on my own, as did most of my classmates. I did, however, take all challenging classes, so I don’t have any idea what the lower tier classes were like.
None of the teachers at my CC were high school teachers - far from it. They all had, at minimum, Masters degrees, with several having PhDs. They had a passion for sharing knowledge through teaching. I could guess that’s because they weren’t on the tenure track and could enjoy teaching for what it is.
I will not deny that there are abuses, or that the ‘social pressure to perform’ is less than at more traditional schools. However, I would argue that to be truly successful in college - to perform at the absolute highest level - social pressure to do well should be completely unnecessary. It must come from within - motivation, drive, pride in a job well done.
Underachieving is not normalized.
Not sure why you’re so bitter. They can be really wonderful places where truly anyone - anyone - can excel and change his or her life. Hopefully you read my story; if not, I hope you will.
