My daughter was admitted to Stanford Class of 2024 and in reviewing Stanford’s recent admissions statistics, I see that ~95% of of students have a HS unweighted GPA of 4.0. If you take into account the number of recruited athletes and other admitted students with significant hooks who may not have to have a 4.0 GPA, this likely means that virtually all other students have 4.0 GPAs. Another way to think about this data is that the likelihood of the average applicant without a 4.0 GPA being in the admitted pool is nearly 0. This concern is pertinent for my son, who is choosing to take advanced math (Calculus BC) in his sophomore year. I am concerned that he may not be able to get an A in this class, and thus significantly diminish his chances at Stanford. The alternative route would be for him to take Calculus AB and then BC later on. I always read how admissions from elite school like Stanford want to see applicants push themselves, but the above cited statistics makes me worried that pushing onself to the point of not getting an A is shooting onself in the foot. What do other think about this issue? Do you have any examples of outcomes?
What they want is the students that get As in the most challenging classes.
So your son doesn’t get into Stamford- if the choice is taking algebra where he’ll be bored (presumably he’s already taken it) or going into the math he’s ready for, what good does it do him to spend a year doodling when he could be learning math?
Not sure you’re thinking about this correctly. The best way to get an education is to-- y’know-- get educated. In my kids HS taking AB and then BC was NOT allowed. The strongest math students took BC, the “strong but not as committed to math” students took AB. One or the other… what does your son’s GC recommend?
Better to get an A in the more demanding class.
The kid who takes calc in 10th grade is already several years advanced in math and should have no trouble getting an A. The greater concern is ensuring he has math options available for 11th and 12th grade.
Data point of one. I got into Stanford with neither a hook nor a 4.0. If the kid gets rejected, it will not be due to one B.
I believe that the REPORTED average UW GPA is 4.0. The statistic is rather meaningless because 95% of Stanford students are not going to use a 4.0 type of grading scale. Schools like Stanford tend to turn GPA into a sort of class rank and then convert that number into a score, say from 1-10, maybe 1-5. To get a “1”, the kid often has to be top 5 or even 3 in graduating class. Not %, but actual number. Exceptions for certain known schools such as Already highly selective and highly competitive high schools. Also, 4.0 out of what? Is that converted UW?
One my kids had an UW college gpa of 4.0. Yet, he wasn’t top 3 or 5 in his class! The danged school doesn’t release class rank other than for Val and Sal, but they also let the top ten kids know who they are. That so many kids could get a 4.0 and still not be top 10 even is because the college gpa is different from the internal one. The internal gpa counts all quarter grades, whereas they release only year end grades on the college transcript unless a course is just one semester in duration.
I’ve seen so many gpa calculations that it makes my head spin. Ask your high school if they even provide any GPAs for their students. Ask to see a school profile and when your kid is ready to apply, ask for a copy of the college app transcript which is NOT generally the same as the one you get
You have a child accepted to Stanford, you say. Did she have a 4.0 on a 4.0 scale? What was her reported gpa? Was she Val or Sal?
Student is three grade levels ahead in math and you do not have confidence that any math in high school including calculus BC is his best subject that will be an easy A for him?
As mentioned above, the main issue would be availability of additional math courses afterwards (possibly at a local college).
If it worries you, play it safe and let him take the Calc AB, then Calc BC. It’s not like a sophomore is slacking taking a frigging AP Calc course , even the AB one. He’ll still be well in college level math as a senior in high school— what does his school offer in that regard? Why should a 15 year old be taking Calc BC anyways unless he’s got his teeth set to that challenge and AB level child’s play to him? My youngest took Calc AB as a senior and he was still designated as taking most difficult curriculum offered. That wasn’t where his school drew the line, and I don’t know any that would draw it over a kid taking Calc BC as a sophomore. Let him ease up a bit this year and spend time on other things. Clearly he is a math whiz. Can do a lot more stretching in other venues.
I am not concerned about whether taking calculus AB versus calculus BC as a sophomore in high school is going to have any impact on his chances of getting accepted to Stanford. I am concerned about something else.
The only students who should even think of taking any level of calculus prior to their senior year of high school are students who are very good at math. These are specifically the students who are likely to end up majoring in either physics or more likely something from the “TEM” part of STEM subjects. In other words, he is likely to end up majoring in something that uses math a lot.
Calculus is likely to be very central to something that he is going to be studying for a long time. This is something that he needs to know very, very well because he is going to be using it for a lot of future classes. Personally I used to sometimes also use multi-variate calculus as part of my job.
The only students who should even consider taking calculus before their senior year of high school are students who are certain to get an A in it for the simple reason that this is something that they will need to know very, very well.
Your son is already way ahead. I think that starting with calculus AB as a sophomore in high school still has him way ahead.
I will admit that I attended a high school that did not even offer calculus as an option. Times have changed.
The student is three grade levels ahead in math and is the one choosing to take BC. Seems like the kind of student for whom any typical high school math including BC is child’s play to him.
From the OP’s description, the student is very good at math – three grade levels ahead and choosing to take the harder BC over AB.
When I was in high school, calculus BC was mainly populated by 12th grade students one grade level ahead in math (completed precalculus in 11th grade). Every few years, there was a student two grade levels ahead in math taking calculus BC in 11th grade. Such a student was typically a top student in math who found calculus BC, like previous high school math courses, to be an easy A (and easy 5 on the AP test).
In other words, if the OP is concerned about the student not getting an A in some high school course, math is probably the least concern out of of all of the high school courses for this student.
Thanks for all who have already responded. Let me respond to a few of these. Firstly, I wanted to clarify that I recognize that my son is advanced in math irregardless of whether he takes AB or BC and that the decision as to which to take is not primarily dependent on the effect on college admissions to a place like Stanford. He is primarily motivated to challenge oneself academically and take classes that he genuinely enjoys and opens new opportunities for advanced learning. That being said, the potential impact on college admissions is not inconsequential. That is the dilemma he is facing - is challenging oneself to the point of not getting top grades and lowering his chances of admission to a place like Stanford worth it. My daughter had a 4.0 unweighted gpa, which includes several APs, including Calculus AB. She took it as a senior and just barely squeezed out an A-, which in her HS, and presumably in Stanford’s eyes, counts as a 4.0. Her approach to academics overall is very different from my son’s. She challenged herself only to the point of taking what was perceived as necessary to a place like Stanford and she achieved her short term goal. My son in contrast challenges himself not just for college admissions. But yet, I am concerned that under the brutal data focused perspective of elite college adm someone like my son may not be favorably viewed without 4.0 gpa. Seems very unfair.
If you want a direct answer to your question, it is, yes, it is possible that a B grade could hurt him in admissions to schools where there are 10-20 candidates for each spot. You don’t know and I don’t know how the results are splayed in then admissions algorithms. It’s possible that he ends up in a stack where the line is drawn under a Gpa that he doesn’t get due to that B. Or that they see the B in Calc, and it doesn’t show that he took it as a sophomore and so many other kids got As in that same course. Yes, it’s possible. It’s also possible that it won’t make a difference. If you want to play it safe, go for the better chances of a 4.0. Ain’t no one gonna hold AB Calc as a sophomore against the kid.
Just tells me one thing, grades are inflated at most schools.
Also, I don’t remember kids having perfect grades at any of the Ivies I attended. Kids were busy with many things, perfection wasn’t one of them. Things have changed. But top schools are looking beyond grades.
I can’t find the class of 2024 stats. Can you link to them?
- The answer to the common question "A in easier class versus B in harder class?" is always "A in harder class".
- That he is challenging himself academically for his own internal reasons, rather than just playing the game for college admissions, is generally a good thing.
- Math seems to be his strongest subject, so it seems that getting "lower" grades is less likely in math compared to other subjects.
- Elite colleges are not the be-all end-all for strong students. Plenty of strong students go to other colleges and do well there with plenty of fulfilling academic challenges.
- Elite college admissions includes many other factors, some of which are out of the control of the student, so a transcript full of A grades in hard classes is merely the beginning of what one needs to get admitted.
I may have inadvertently implied that the stats are for class of 2024. they are not yet available. The stats are from class of 2023 and you can find it by googling Stanford common data.
The title of this post read “less demanding classes” then I see Calc AB is mentioned as what just may be the less demanding class. Perspective is all that comes to mind.
I agree that elite colleges are not the end all be all and have tried to counsel my kids this. In fact, I often tell them in all seriousness that they don’t have to go to college at all, as long as they can develop a skill or be in a vital trade or profession, such as being a firefighter. Despite this, they have internalized the values of their sub-culture and peers and deemed elite college admission as an important goal. Another consideration in our situations is that there is naturally a fair amount of sibling rivalry between my son and daughter. It worries me that if my son were to not gain admission to Stanford despite superior academics and following what these colleges tell them, e.g. challenge onself, this would be a bad lesson for him to learn.
Sibling rivalry is the least of your problems if your sophomore son is already mapping out his adult life based on what his sister did/does/will do.
I agree these “perfect” grades are meaningless. However, Stanford does seem to give applicants’ grades more weight than its peers. Regardless, I’d still advise OP’s son to take the more challenging course, because presumably, Stanford isn’t the only school he’s applying to. He may very well get an A in Calc BC.
its actually my concern not my son’s. Perhaps I shouldn’t worry but hard not to as a parent.