Better to get an A in less demanding classes for elite college admissions?

Applying to College
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OP said “recent” statistics. The most recent published, showing 95.4% with a 4.0, can be found at https://ucomm.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2019/12/stanford-cds-2019.pdf

Fwiw, I take reported GPA statistics with a grain of salt, as noted above. Especially when schools start reporting average GPA’s like 4.39 (UNC Chapel Hill), with 92% having a 4.0 but only 78% in the top 10% of their class. The “using 4.0 scale” seems to be applied loosely/sparingly.

https://oira.unc.edu/files/2020/08/CDS_2019-2020_20200805.pdf

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I will try to get clarification from Stanford about their stats since this is the crux of the issue. Even for a place like Stanford, it is hard for me to believe that truly >95% of a recent incoming class had a 4.0 UW GPA. I have a feeling that >95% refers to those with GPA between 3.75-4.0. I say this b/c this was what was reported in the prior years common data set for incoming freshman.

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Regarding the portion of class with a 4.0 GPA, the most recent internal publications are for the class of 2016 at https://admission.stanford.edu/apply/selection/profile16.html . It lists the following

58% of applicants have 4.0+ GPA and 75% of admits have 4.0+ GPA
28% of applicants have 3.7-3.99 GPA and 21% of admits have 3.7 to 3.99 GPA
14% of applicants have below 3.7 GPA and 4% of admits have below GPA

Comparing to the CDS for the same year at https://ucomm.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2018/06/stanford-cds-2016.pdf , it shows similar numbers

Website – 96% of admits have 3.7+, 4% of admits have below 3.7
CDS – 93% of class has 3.75+, 5% of class has below 3.5-3.74, mean = 3.94 GPA

Looking at later years of the CDS
2016 CDS – 93% of class has 3.75+, 5% has below 3.5-3.74, mean = 3.94 GPA
2017 CDS – 95% of class has 3.75+, 4% has below 3.5-3.74, mean = 3.95 GPA
2018 CDS – 95.6% of class has 3.75+, 4% has below 3.5-3.74, mean = 3.95 GPA
2019 CDS – 95.4% of class has 4.0, 4% has 3.75-3.99, mean = 3.96 GPA

Note that between 2018 CDS and 2019 CDS, the GPA categories changed, but the percentages did not. In previous years ~95% of the class had a 3.75+ and ~4% had a 3.5 to 3.74. However , in 2019 ~95% had a 4.0 and ~4% had a 3.75 to 3.99 . So I expect that there is a typo in the 2019 CDS actual the actual percentages were as follows.

3.75+ GPA – 95.4% of students
3.5 to 3.74 – 3.6% of students
3.25 to 3.49 – 0.9% of students
3.0 to 3.24 – 0.1% of students

One should also consider than 18% of students were not included in the GPA calculation, and I believe this is recalculated GPA in which freshman year and non-core classes are not included, and A- is treated as a 4.0.

You can see some example students in the decision threads on this site. I expect CC decision thread posters have higher stats than typical, yet a good portion of unhooked admitted CC posters do not have a 4.0 UW. They almost always have a very high GPA, but not 4.0 UW, prior to recalculation.

Regarding the original poster’s question, an A in calc AB (sophomore year) followed by an A in calc BC (junior year) is almost certainly going to be viewed more positively than getting a B in calc BC followed by no math in junior/senior year.

However, there are a lot of other factors. For example, how do you know he is going to get a relatively low grade in calc BC as a sophomore, but not in calc AB as sophomore or calc BC as junior? This sounds like a lot of guessing. If he is taking calc BC as a sophomore, I expect he is an exceptional math student and is not struggling in math. What has he done to suggest that he will not get an A in math?

I was accepted unhooked to Stanford several years ago when Stanford reported ~70% of students had a 4.0+ GPA, rather than the 75% today. Like the OP, I took calc BC as a sophomore (as I recall), and went on to take higher level math and other colleges at a nearby university. I did well in math and the university classes.

I did not do as well in my HS English classes and some of the HS language classes, so my HS GPA was well below 4.0 . However, my GPA showed a good upward trend . As I recall, the most recent grades on my application included:

Math, Science, and Electives – A’s in university classes at likely higher math/science level than anyone from HS had ever taken before, with great LOR from math professor

HS English – A (did much better after switching from AP English track to guided independent study English)

HS Language – A+ (did much better after switching from Spanish to Latin)

I expect that Stanford considered my grades in context. I was a prospective engineering major, so there was a greater focus on my math/science strength than my relative weakness in English/language – both in the grades achieved and in rigor/level of courses. The upward trend was also considered, with a greater emphasis on the more recent courses. As mentioned earlier in the post, Stanford recalculates without freshman year.

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Thanks for your thorough analysis. As noted earlier, I too noticed the change between 2018 and 2019 CDS, which hopefully indicates a typo. If this is the case, this would be much more compatible with my son challenging himself, despite higher probability of not getting an A, but this would not be as damaging to his chances at Stanford.

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Have to agree that CDS C11 can be unreliable, since colleges have different ways of recalculating HS GPAs (if they do recalculate, versus taking them at face value) and reporting them. CDS C10 on class rank can also be unreliable if many students do not submit class rank.

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It is ok if he goes to a UC / SUNY / whatever-your-state-school-is.

Why are you worrying about possible lower grades in math, which appears to be his strongest subject, rather than any other subject that may not be as strong for him?

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@ucbalumnus

It’s really about equity and early life lessons. I would hate for my son to get an early lesson that it is better (in terms of college admissions) to game the system (by taking easier classes and getting As) rather than truly challenging onself.

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Eventually, he and you will confront the reality that sometimes gaming the system may be more effective at some (not all) admissions gates. Does he want to become a physician or lawyer? If so, college will be a four year process of chasing A or A+ grades (and it is typically a lot harder to earn a 4.0 in college than in high school).

But also, why are you worried about math rather than some other subject? If the students whose strongest subject is math want to back off the rigor, they usually want to do that in English, foreign language, or history (where there is actually more of a risk of getting a lower grade for them), not math (which they tend to find to be an easy A even in the hardest high school math courses).

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In answer to your title, it’s actually better to be a recruited athlete. That’s really the only path from our high school to Stanford (based on the last 5 years of evidence). This year they had no trouble at all rejecting the 4.0 uw valedictorian who incidentally did take Calc BC as a sophomore and went on to take MV Calc and DiffEq at the local university - receiving all As. I’ve seen dozens of most rigorous available, 4.0 unweighted students rejected by Stanford. They like our runners and volleyball players - usually pick up 1 a year - maybe 2 in a particularly fine athletic year. All fine students none of whom contemplated taking any form of Calculus their sophomore year. If you’re expecting equity and life lessons from the college application process - particularly at sub 10% acceptance schools, you’re in for a rough road.

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AB may be less demanding than BC, but adcoms aren’t going to roll their eyes and say he cheated rigor. Not as a 10th grader. If the hs allows, let him take BC later or a more demanding math at the local comm college.

Yes, a B can hurt. There’s the reality of the fierce competition for STEM at top colleges versus anecdotal info. (And remember, our own college experiences were ages ago.)

Add other factors, like geo diversity. If you come from an area strong in STEM applicants, it’s that much tougher competition. Bear in mind also that, in the end, getting into a holistic elite is more than your academic record and stats.

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???

Even if he take BC and gets an “A”, it is still unlikely that he will get into Stanford. That is just the reality.

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My daughter (D23) is like your son – very advanced in math. She started in AP Calc BC lat year as a 9th grader and switched “down” to AP Calc AB one month in. She had an extremely demanding schedule and was losing sleep trying to keep up with everything. She found AP Calc AB easy as pie, aced it, and is now looking forward to the BC class (it just started yesterday) as she feels very solid and grounded in the previous material.

I think the above outcome – a kid who got straight-As in all her classes last year and also got 9 hours of sleep most nights, plus had deep involvement in extracurricular activities – was ideal for her. Had she continued with BC last year, she may have gotten an A, but it would have come at the cost of a ton of unhealthy stress, profound loss of sleep, and cutting back on her ECs. She prides herself on her math abilities and was upset at first about “quitting” BC, but she got over that pretty quickly when her life went from feeling horrible to enjoyable.

Plus, calculus is a topic that takes time to sink it for many (most?). I don’t see the point of rushing a kid through it if the kid needs more time to truly grasp all the material. I doubt adcoms will see the point either. So now my 10th grader is taking Calc BC and will then take math at community college for 11th and 12th. I feel she has a very firm grasp of everything Calc AB, and if she had forced herself through BC last year, she wouldn’t have retained much.

I get wanting to know if getting an A in Calc AB is better than getting a B in Calc BC for elite admission purposes. However, for calculus, having a deep understanding that sticks with the kid is so important. For this subject, I worry more about making sure my kid has a lasting and secure knowledge of it, which meant for her slowing down the pace to allow for better and deeper understanding.

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I read on CC that there are many schools which don’t have plus/minus grades so anything 89.5 and above is an A or 4.0. What a joke.
What these kids don’t realize is that the elites select kids from all over the world. Going into a math class, or English class or history class with top students from around the world is going to be challenging. That is why many struggle the first year. Honestly, I don’t understand the value of going to a school which isn’t a fit. How does that help you?

Deep learning is important in life. Elite college admissions is not. Deep learners try to understand and often bring a type of thinking that isn’t about checking the boxes but tying things together. These skills are very important.

I think kids should take the classes that are best for them. And parents need to stay out of it. My oldest asked us several times about classes, we added some thoughts and said ultimately it’s your decision. Same with college.

There is no way, I would pick a major, college or path for my kids. Or even emphasize the value of one school over another based on rankings. My spouse attended a far less prestigious college than I did and has excelled above and beyond most of my “elite” classmates. I’m not against elite colleges for the right reasons ( mainly intellectual vigor). But I am against using college as a status symbol. Life is not a race. And a B in Calc BC isn’t going to change your life trajectory in any meaningful way.

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Happy- and NOT going to Stanford will also not change your life trajectory in a meaningful way so I think the focus here on ONE grade and ONE college and ONE path (following the sister) is terribly misguided.

Kids with perfect academic records get rejected from Stanford all the time, and the message should NOT be “life’s not fair” or "boy you messed up sophomore year by doing/not doing ABC.) The message from the parent needs to be “wow, it’s a competitive pool of really talented kids and we’re so proud you did your best. And how cool is it that you get to pick from CMU and JHU and Wash U and Columbia, all of whom have really strong programs in stuff you’re interested in! We are so proud of you!”

To start- sophomore year- perseverating on admissions to ONE college and ONE math grade sets the stage for some really sad stuff down the road. And does the sister need to feel guilty that she got in and younger sibling didn’t?

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“To start- sophomore year- perseverating on admissions to ONE college…sets the stage for some really sad stuff down the road.”

Maybe…but sometimes having a reach goal can be a positive. For example, best friend growing up wanted to attend UC Berkeley for Engineering and was always his goal since 9th grade. Guess where he ended up? Attended UCB, switched major to Economics, and is now a very successful SVP for a tech company.

Having a stretch goal kept him focused on the “prize” and was a positive for at least this student.

For my D20, she started taking college admissions seriously starting with her sophomore year (she was always a straight A student and very good test taker). We got her a private college counselor in 10th grade and set-up a game plan for her to attend her “dream” college. She was accepted.

Having a stretch goal is not the “doom and gloom” I hear frequently on CC, just make sure that you are realistic at your chances of admissions and have a balanced attitude if you do not reach your goal. The journey may just open up other doors and college opportunities.

To the OP, your student should take the most challenging Math class available and he might just surprise you and himself with excelling in the class?! How does one know what they are capable of if they take the “safe” route?

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My 2nd daughter is taking BC as a freshman and we wrestled with the same thing. At the end of the day, we felt there was far more value in learning to struggle with something than just getting an easy A that we were okay if she got a BC and learned to be more resilient and it’s not the end of world.

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When sharing anecdotes. I hope this “we” everyone talks about includes the kid actually taking the class.

Has there been any indication about what the OPs son thinks?

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@ucbalumus - The focus and concern about math/Calculus BC is because I didn’t think my son is a natural math wiz and sort of surprised that he wants to take Calculus BC so early (though his math teachers are supportive of this advanced path). The other reason is that this is a subject in which he can back off a bit but yet still be advanced, which will allow him to explore advanced classes in other domains, as well as continue his extensive extra-curriculars (competitive soccer and orchestra).

@skieurope - My son seems non-plussed about the potential difficulties of Calculus BC so perhaps all this worrying is for naught. However, it does worry me that this may be a case in which my son need more guidance.

BTW - altough I have tried to encourage hard work and achievement in a general way, we the parents are not helicopter parents, micro-managing and pushing him in any way. The focus on Stanford is also from my son, not the parents. If I had my way, I would like him to attend a small liberal arts college out of the west coast,.

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@blossom Exactly. A kid can attend an excellent highly ranked school, have perfect stats, amazing ecs, community involvement and be just an excellent person and get rejected to each and every school.
The only thing that matters is that kids find a school THEY like and that fits them.

@SFNewYorker BTW, there is little “bonus” to a kid taking very advanced math early in terms of college admissions. My kids were years ahead in math ( one two years the other 4). There are many/most kids who don’t have access to extremely advanced classes. Some schools don’t even have Calc BC. And many of the kids who are light years ahead, had access earlier.

In CA, they let kids move ahead while in MA, they do not (so it’s rare for kids to be ahead via gifted programs). In MA, where our kids attended school that doesn’t exist in public schools. Many kids who had naturally advanced math kids just gave up or did programs outside of school. Many of these parents were from other systems where math followed a more advanced path.

Asian kids and some kids from other nations were also naturally 2 years ahead of their US peers when my kids entered high school. Not because they were “advanced” but due to the nature of their educational program. It’s great to be ahead if that’s where the kid is naturally. But IMO most of these kids were pushed by their parents. How do I know this? Well my kid who is 4 years ahead told me everyone in a math program was being tutored (usually by their parents).

I’m all in favor of advanced math, but IMO it’s mainly about early access and less often about natural abilities. For those kid who are excellent/gifted at math, I believe they’ll naturally find their way to the appropriate education. That’s why even Caltech and MIT don’t have expectations that someone has moved ahead of normal high school curriculum.

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First of all, as you have already conceded, ANY AP Calc (be it AB or BC) for a 10th grader is VERY advanced.

Second of all, as even the most advanced students –– the ones with 4.0 unweighted GPAs that have taken the most advanced courses available to them –– still get rejected from schools like Stanford all the time. By the same token, students without 4.0 unweighted GPAs also get accepted to schools like Stanford.

If we were discussing your son having to choose between either of the AP Calc classes (AB or BC) or regular a Calculus class (not AP), I would say yes, taking a lower-level (non-AP) might be not look great for a school like Stanford. Likewise, if your son were a senior and wanted to go into CS or Engineering, I might encourage him to take BC over AB.

If the normal progression in his school is AB followed by BC and he’s a 10th grader, he’ll still be able to take a more advanced class (e.g., Multivariable Calc or Linear Algebra) his senior year.

At some schools, however, the normal progression is to take AP Calc AB or BC –– not both in succession. At my D’s school, most kids don’t take Calculus until 12th grade.

The bottom like is this: your son’s getting into Stanford will not be determined by whether he takes AB or BC this year. He should take whatever class would be best for him overall without causing undue stress, lack of sleep, or sacrificing time that that can otherwise be spent on extracurriculars or time that he can be with friends and family.