beyond indoc

Colleges and Universities A-Z Merchant Marine Academy - Kings Point
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<p>I stumbled across this site while helping a friend research colleges for their oldest son.. </p>

<p>My son graduated from Kings Point a year ago so I though I’d jump in and offer my 2 cents on the whole KP parent experience. Unlike most parents of midshipmen/cadets I also work in the Merchant Marine as a vessel master and have seen my share of Kings Point cadets in my 30+ years at sea. So I have a unique perspective on the whole thing. </p>

<p>First off, I knew it would be difficult for my son, as his math and science aptitude were not as strong as many of his classmates. His plebe year he struggled with calculus and ended up flunking it the first trimester. He did finally make it up in the summer remedial program. His other grades were okay and I was able to help him with some of his professional subjects. It still was a rollercoaster ride for my wife and I and we had to periodically remind him (as he pretty much knew) that the way things are run at KP is NOT the way things run out in the U.S. Merchant Marine. Once he got to sea year it would be different. Not necessarily easier, but I thought he could cope better because he had been exposed to it. Again he knew what to expect at sea (he had nearly 50 days sea time sailing with me during summers while still in high school). He passed his first sea year project, although he didn’t get the grades he thought he should have gotten especially given all the work he put into it.
Things got better after he returned to school for the remainder of his 3rd into his 2nd class year. His second sea year again was a challenge and despite putting in less work on his sea project than his 3rd class year he actually did better on it. Go figure.. To me it is one of those KP anomalies.. It seemed to me the more work he put in on some things the worse he did in them..
I will never figure that out about the place.
His firstie year was another struggle.. He flunked Advanced Navigation and Nav Law (Rules of the Road). Both subjects I was confident he knew VERY well, because I had him as cadet for part of his second sea years and saw first hand what he could do.
Never the less he failed and needed to retake both classes his last trimester..
All you parents of deckies at some point will probably hear your kids *****ing about the Nav Law/Advanced Nav professor, Captain Hard. That’s a whole other subject in itself.
Anyway, it all worked out and he got through it. He passed thirds the first time with flying colors, rang the bell and walked the stage two weeks later... </p>

<p>So, after all that, what advice can I leave you and your cadet with..</p>

<p>Here are a few things.. </p>

<p>1)The kids will call and gripe about things – Just listen and be supportive. It will all pass..</p>

<p>2)It is not for everybody.. and they may quit.. respect that decision and drive on..</p>

<p>3)They may not want to quit, but will be dropped for academic or conduct reasons.. The hard reality is that 35% of my son’s class either quit, flunked out, were disenrolled for conduct reasons or were set back to the next class. Be ready for that too.. If the service academies were easy everybody would get in and everybody would graduate.. The screening process doesn’t end after being accepted or after indoc or after second sea year!! It ends when you are handed that diploma on graduation day.</p>

<p>4)Kids must be ready and willing to WORK when they go to sea.. There is nothing ships officers hate more than a kid that is a work “shirker” and believe me, recently I’ve encountered more than a few from KP. To be fair I’ve had them from the State “School Ships” too. It ain’t the Love Boat out there. The notion that your cadet will be standing around in clean pressed khakis watching others work can’t be further from the truth. If you think Indoc is hard, try cleaning lube oil purifiers all day long in a 120 degree heat of a motorship engineroom!!! Or sailing at 0200 after short rest and looking at being on the bridge for a 6 hour river transit!!</p>

<p>5)When you get on that first ship don’t be too quick to tell that hard working First Engineer or Chief Mate you are not that interested in sailing and are looking to “fly Navy” or “going Marine Corp” after graduation.. I think I speak for all of us in the Merchant Marine when I say we want to see kids that are interested in OUR profession. A profession, I might add, that I’m very proud to be a part of. Nothing ticks me off more than when a cadet tells me they would only sail as a “fall back” if they didn’t get into Naval Air, Coast Guard, Marine Corp etc. and then that they would only sail for a few years because the money is good.. I for one, won’t waste a whole lot of time or effort trying to teach those kids. I want kids on my ship that want to be in the U.S. Merchant Marine.. If you want to fly jets or lead Marines, in my opinion you should have gone to the Naval or Air Force Academy. If that seems harsh, too bad.</p>

<p>6)Parents don’t get too overly involved. Be a sounding board but let them work things out for themselves. Cut the apron strings. </p>

<p>7)Let them have the experience. I’ve read many of the posts and you would have thought that some of the parents of the upper-class cadets had been through indoc as a cadet too(who knows, maybe some have).. Try not to live vicariously through your son or daughter. Get a life of your own.. My wife and I were always comfortable with sort of a vague idea of what was going on during indoc as we saw it in the daily pictures. We never pressed our son for details and he never volunteered much more than “it sucked but I was determined to get through it”.</p>

<p>8)Play rugby. According to my son the team has great camaraderie and good parties. As crazy as it sounds it was one of the biggest reasons he gives for being able to make it through the school..
It’s a good way to “lift the safeties and blow off some steam”. </p>

<p>I know for you parents of new plebes this is way more information than you can handle right now.. You’re probably still trying to figure out what to say during that first phone call.. For those parents of ‘08 and ‘09 the voyage is far from over. I’ve said probably more than I should have so I’m going to “belay and coil down”..Good Luck</p>

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<p>Thanks, deepdraft! Much of what you say applies to the other academies also. Sure hope you stick around to answer candidate questions that will come up as we start another admissions cycle.</p>

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<p>Deepdraft1, great post! My son, a deckie, is an '06 grad. Everything you said about KP I heard from him, including the Nav Law. He did pass it first time, but was on the edge of his seat all the way. He played rugby too--he's addicted to it and plans to join a club when he gets a place to live. He loved sailing and is now 'looking for a ship'--calling the dispatcher daily from now on, since he just finished visiting friends at the beach. Can't wait to get back out to sea.</p>

<p>Thanks for the post!</p>

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<p>DD1 that's one of the best posts ever! Right up there with Zaphod's best stuff(USNA board). Great insights that can be applied to all the Academies.</p>

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<p>Deepdraft1, you've NO idea how truly helpful your post is. I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to post here. To include your son's struggles is VERY comforting to know, for some of us. The new parents might not get it straight away but after this first year, it makes great sense. I think our concern is that our kid will go to sea, love it, & not come back. LOL He likes the hands on process much more than the books. He was cutting & threading pipe at about age 14 and figuring out the physical labor & how to get things done. It seems to come easier to him than sitting in class with a diagram on the board. He is beyond excited about going out now that the time has come (July 23! I better get a post card). My question is, how did you keep/help your son to stay motivated to learn what he really needed to learn and stay on top of the projects & the books? What words did you use to help him deal with the "real" world when KP grades sometimes aren't fair with all the hard work and that the work on the ship needed to be backed up with the academics to make the education complete? </p>

<p>I use KPmom to find out what will happen next sometimes. She knows.... :) She's been a huge help & I love her dearly. Deepdraft, since you're in the business, I hope you come back here often (please) to post your thoughts on the maritime business. Most of us are just learning. I swear my husband has 30 books so far.... He's trying to edu-ma-ca-te us. :) We saw where the History channel was going to show a special on the piracy thats been happening. I think its on the 16th? More to learn! Deepdraft, you stay here! We need you!</p>

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<p>basically, I told him that he knows what he knows.. no grade will change that. I think he took it to heart and worked through the problem. The proof of course was how he scored on thirds. As a matter of fact he did better than old Deepdraft1 did on his original thirds test :) So, anyway grades and test scores are many times not the true measure of what you are capable of.. I applied and didn't get into KP and ended up at a "School Ship". That didn't deter me and I got a fine education. I am on the 5th issue of my masters license and have had the privilege and honor of sailing Master in the best Merchant Marine in the world. So I guess I did something right.. Sometimes it ain't how smart you are, it's how driven you are.. Yeah, deepdraft2 wasn't the best high school student and he struggled at old KP and he had some help that is not available to most cadets, but he got through. I think I came across a bit rough on my original post. And for that I apologize. I didn’t mean to scare anybody or raise the anxiety level of the new plebe parents. I have a great love for my chosen profession and I want to see the best and brightest succeed me. For you parents, I also know how hard it is to let go of people you love.. but at some point you have to let go of them so they can be who they are going to be. Give them some space.. they will be fine.</p>

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<p>KPmom06, give my congratulations to your son on his graduation. I know how proud you are of his accomplishments. My best wishes go out to him in his seagoing career..</p>

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<p>DD1, :D Not coming across as rough. Just honest & I think everything you said, needed to be said because its the voice of experience & its on the money. I don't glean much from my usual Sunday phone call except the words, "Can you send me some new socks & batteries?" He did send me the specs on the container ship that he'll be going out on. That was cool. We looked up the shipping company & are trying to figure out the paths it will travel. You should see landlubbers trying to figure out some of the charts & timetables you guys use. LOL Kpmom & LFWBDad sent me a link to some ship tracking sights. We've practiced on finding The Eagle which has been a real hoot. So, you take out some of the KP kids for some of their Sea Year? What type of ship do you sail & where do you go? What is your son doing now? I have a 100 more questions but will save them up so you don't think I'm insane. (no comment from the peanut gallery Boss)</p>

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<p>Yess DD1 a great post. I concur with most of your thoughts on sea year and what to expect on a ship. I will disagree with one point though. I've sailed with more than a few cadets that indicated they were going to fly Navy or go USMC. They were not all shirkers. They were some of the best cadets I've worked with. Eventhough they were not going to sail as a career they were hard working and wanted to learn. They were respectful of my choosen career. Two of I know are fighter pilots today. One is in the USMC in Iraq right now. I have learned over time not to judge the book by its cover. I want all the cadets to have a positive sea year experience. I know of others who were gungho Navy or something else and after their sea year they changed their minds. It opened a whole new avenue to them. I have sent back to the Academy more than one cadet for being a shirker though. I won't tolerate it.</p>

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<p>Kpcheng81, I agree with you. Most of the kids that want to go fly or be marines are generally good cadets and want to learn. I don’t think I said they were “work shirkers”. </p>

<p>However, I did have a very recent experience with a cadet that had Air Force aspirations. He was somewhat less than motivated to learn the finer points of seamanship and navigation (that’s a real understatement, believe me) . I guess he figured “do the minimum to get through the sea project and off the ships so that I’m one step closer to the cockpit”. Hopefully for the Air Force’s sake and (or anyone flying with him) he won’t continue to “just do enough to get by”. I was relieving as Chief Mate when I sailed with this kid. The guy I relieved told me “this cadet is probably the worst cadet you will ever sail with” He was right. That kid held my “worst cadet” ranking only for a very short time though. My next ship as master I had a female engine cadet that topped him. Her problem was that she had NO aspirations other than going ashore and having a good time. I guess because this just happen not long ago it colored my comments in my first post.. Who do you sail for?</p>

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<p>Jamzmom, all of us already know you're insane.. a bit over the top, but hey, everybody needs a hobby. Please take that in the nicest possible way. I’ll still answer your questions as best I can and try and give you the straight skinny. I’m old and opinionated and I sometimes need guys like kpcheng to call me on some of my BS.<br>
First off, I sail on containerships for a major west coast company. I just got off in early June as Master of a ship on the trans-Pacific run. Our voyage starts in Long Beach CA and the ship calls in Honolulu, Guam, Ningbo PRC and Shanghai PRC then back to Long Beach. It’s a 35 day turn-around. (Why is it I have this strange feeling as though I’m a “mystery guest” whose identity will be revealed at the end of the post!!!???) My son is working for a tanker company on the east coast and he is also currently on vacation. While on vacation he has been working part-time for a small tow boat outfit in the San Francisco bay area. He is making good money and has stopped asking me for dough. He probably just thinks that old money tree we had growing in the back yard has stopped producing so there is no sense asking anymore. Anyway, you have 98 questions left so choose wisely..</p>

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<p>DD1 and KP2001- Can you explain what a typical day is like? How much time do you have in ports? How hard is it to advance to 2nd(E/D) and Master(C.E.)? Are there less jobs the higher you go? Can a spouse(family) sail with you? Big questions with a lot of variables....</p>

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<p>Matson on the Matsonia. I think I know who you are and I think I've met your son if you were on the Lurline together when you were Mate. Will be heading off to China Aug 4th for a two month yard. I know from Capt Cronin we will be getting two cadets for the yard. I hope they are good ones. They can learn so much during that time and very few cadets actually get to stay during a yard period. The First and Chief Mate will need all the arms and legs they can get. I'm sure you know.</p>

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<p>DD1, why what ever could you mean? :) Besides, I'm only insane on martini mondays..... </p>

<p>DD1 or KPcheng,
Question # 98 - My son will be catching his ship in Honolulu. Do most of the container ships come into Honolulu Harbor or is there another commercial harbor? Don't sigh either... I did google the thing & still can't figure it out. </p>

<p>Question #97 on the countdown - I too, would love to know what a day in the life kinda thing is for a kid especially when you go into harbors. How long does it take to load/off load & do they get to be involved in the process much?</p>

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<p>Hi Dave, I guess we Matson guys must stick out. We might as well wear a sign around our necks. I thought it might be you posting too. I heard your kid just started at KP. Congrates to him on his appointment. I’m assuming he will be “checking the right box” and going deck, right? lol.. You know I think we may have sailed together on MATSONIA back in December 1998. I was doing a quick relief for Mike Mociun and I think you were sailing First at the time. Hey, I heard that Mike Tobin is retiring!! Can that be true? If it is, it will be a sad day on LURLINE. First Jon Eaton and now maybe Mike.. Two of the finest people I have had the good fortune to sail with.</p>

<p>Well I had better answer Jamzmom’s questions or she will probably put a hex on me..</p>

<h1>98 – All Matson container ships call in Honolulu. Horizon Lines also has a regular weekly service there. So if Jamz Jr. is joining a Horizon or Matson ship he would catch it in Hono.. Matson’s LURLINE also calls in Kahului, Maui and KPcheng81’s ship MATSONIA calls in Hilo, Hawaii (the Big Island). Both ports are in addition to Honolulu. There are some other companies that call there too. But those are the only U.S. container companies that do..</h1>

<p>I think Jamz Jr. is an engineering cadet, right.. If so I think KPcheng81 could better answer #97 as it relates to engine cadets. If he is a deck cadet, that’s easy.. They are usually the first ones down the gangway, right Dave...lol
Okay, it’s late for me.. I’ve already spent WAY too much time here today.. I’ll get back to #97 with a serious answer tomorrow..</p>

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<p>I live a thousand miles from any ocean so I can't see the state of the Merchant Marine first-hand. But I read and hear many people say that the US Merchant Marine Industry is disappearing. That the number of US Flagged Vessels is decreasing and that good jobs are hard to find in the Merchant Marines. My son wants to sail and is thinking of joining the US Navy Sealift because he thinks that it offers a more secure future.</p>

<p>Since a couple of you are employed in the business, what is your opinion of the Merchant Marine's future and career prospects?</p>

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<p>jamzmom, give me the name of the ship or company or PM me. I can be more specific then. I think your son is a deckie, right?</p>

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<p>I heard the same thing 25 years ago when I graduated. The end was just around the corner. All doom and gloom. The US flag merchant marine is subjected to the same global pressures as any other industry. In fact global economics hit the merchant marine before many others. It has adapted. Congress has responded with new programs. The Iraq war has shown the pentagon talking heads the importance of a viable merchant marine. The parent companies of most US liner companies are foreign companies. The operators of most US container terminals are foreign companies. They are all making money, lots of it. Even the Jones Act protected coastwise companies are raking it in. These foreign companies would not be in the US flad merchant marine business if they weren't making money. They would not be building newer and bigger ships to replace the aging US tonnage if they did not think they were going to make a buck. Shipping has changed a bunch in the last 30 years. Ships are larger and turn around in port faster. They are more automated than ever requiring fewer crewmembers. They are more technical than ever requiring better trained crewmembers. The jobs will be there for those that want to stick it out and get the proper training. It is not an easy life. Most people frankly cannot handle it for a number of reasons. Military Sealift (MSC) is a good place to start and get your feet wet. Yes it may have more security but it comes at a price, i.e. lower pay (lots lower) and reduced benefits.</p>

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<p>How great to get 2 - 2 real Merchant Mariners on CC!!! Welcome DD and back again KPCheng. Your insight for onboard activites, work ethic, as well as experience working with KPers is invaluable for the rest of of us who are learning and going to the web for info.<br>
What's the story for those new graduates now sitting in the union halls waiting for a ship? Any advice as well as differences between all the options right out of school in the industry - beyond the services and MSC. (sorry - when you drop in here, we hang on every word).</p>

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<p>This is Kpmom06's son. I just graduated on june 19th, and thought that i would give a recent perspective of the school after indoc. Life only gets harder. Academics kick in and its like your first time being thrown into a pool when you don't know how to swim. The chances are your kids are going to have to adapt to it or get out. As a "Straight Deckie" plebe year was definitely my hardest year academically. I was very weak in calculus, but managed to get by with C's. Fortunately made friends with an engineer who had already had 2 years of calculus, and he helped me out a lot. Turns out i later roomed with him, and he was my sea partner both times. No one can go through academics alone, and yes there will be complaining about Kings Point. But that only gets worse with the more time spent there. I did it just as much as anyone else. While you are at the school, there are a lot of things that will start to bother you. Especially if you end up joining the century club (100 demerits or more) your second class year. The best advice that i received was from my dad one break. I came home in a horrible mood, angry at the school and a lot of the BS that goes on there. My dad just said to me, "Shut the **** up and just deal with it" It was the best advice that i had had. Just got to grin and bear it through. Coddling a midshipman is the worst thing that you can do. All it will do is make them miss home more and detract from focus of their studies. </p>

<p>Sea Year is an interesting time. It changed my perspective on life. I originally wanted to go and fly for the Navy, but after my second day on a ship decided that i wanted to sail. Your kids need to go out with an open mind and be willing to try something new. Sea is like nothing else they will ever experience, or have. Unless they grew up on the water or have a parent who is in the Merchant Marine, it will be a complete culture shock. I know when i saw my first ship pull into port i thought it was huge. Turns out it was one of the smaller ships that i was on. Before he/she leaves to go on a ship, encourage them to consider sailing, just so they are willing to ask questions of the officers. I had a bunch of really good officers while i was at sea. And when they asked the infamous question do you want to sail? I didn't give the canned answer that the school gives you and say "Yes, that is definitely what i want to do." I was honest and told them that when i first got to the school i wanted to fly but i'm getting more and more interested in sailing everyday. Turns out it is what i really want to do, and i hope to work my way up to Captain someday. As for communication, give their email address out, to a few people that they will appreciate hearing from. it does get lonely out there, and you can't always call in port i.e. Africa. one email a week from the parents is enough, just a simple hey whats goin on, and tell them how life is at home. Again don't write the "are you ok?" "We miss you soo much" type of email cause it will make them feel even farther from home. And remind them to do their sea project. </p>

<p>The Sea Project is very outdated. Many times i would ask the Captain for help on a question and he would say that he hasn't used this type of system since the early 80's. Advise your kid to get a pony. Don't have them copy it, but use it as a guide. When a cadet first looks at the instructions which are as confusing as a suduko puzzle is, it is overwhelming. A pony gives the proper style of layout that the school likes, especially one that got an A. I didn't do that well on my sea projects, but i passed them. I just banged them out and was finished the first sea project in 3 weeks, and the second year within a month. I figured that would give me more time to learn about the actual workings of a ship and do my job without having to use the excuse,"I need to work on my sea project." Plus it was really nice coming back to school with it done, and bound from Office Max, while the rest of your class mates are pulling allnighters to finish it. I just hung out and played video games while they were rushing to finish. Ironically however i did notice one thing about my class when we came back from sea, at least with the deckies, is that the people who did nothing at sea but worked on their sea projects, usually had the least amount of nautical know how, and had to study the most when it came to License. </p>

<p>When sea is over life at KP becomes hard. First Class year is no picnic, especially the third trimester with license prep. I personally didn't find it too hard because i made a trimester long study plan. A lot of my class mates who didn't pass on the first go fell into the Lapware trap. (Lapware is the computer program for deckies that asks Coast Guard questions) My advice for license study is read through the Murphy books, then go onto lapware to reinforce what was learned. I breezed through license prep, and found license to be a lot easier than i expected. I think that is due to non stop studying leading up to license week, and not having to cram during it. </p>

<p>Finally as has been said before, Play Rugby. Probably the best group of guys at the school. The team is like a brotherhood, and surprisingly has some really smart kids on it that are willing to help each other out. Also if your son is looking for a sport and is athletic, the team is looking to have a repeat of its undefeated Championship season from last year. </p>

<p>I hope that this is helpful. I'll be in the South Pacific on a Cable repair ship starting sometime this week. I wish the best of luck for your Cadets.</p>