In my next sentence I said that only 36% get a degree. A PP stated that only 33% attend college.
you missed never in 33%, so technically we both are saying same thing.
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College is necessary to have a chance at a foothold in the middle class, unlike many consumer goods.
It’s a terrible waste for society when smart, hard working youth cannot go to college because their parents do not make twice or three times the average income. In the knowledge economy, it also means decline for the country or State that can’t get its HS graduates through higher education programs. (BTW, after being in the lead for decades, the US has now been overtaken by European countries or other developed countries - note that “college” isn’t always in the title, for instance Nursing Care Institutes, etc…)
An individual waste, a loss in future tax revenue, a geopolitical and economic risk… there’s a lot to lose if students don’t have the means to go to college, and a lot to gain if that access is facilitated.
Optimally, debt wouldn’t be necessary.
Tennessee realized that offering free community college would pay many times over because they were losing contracts with companies due to a less-than-ideally educated workforce (both AA/AS and Bachelor’s levels) and better jobs that require higher degrees than a simple diploma will also generate more taxes. Therefore, Tennessee Promise.
Educating students is beneficial to society, hence, the subsidizing of college costs through various programs (State, federal, direct, indirect, etc). It’s a collective as well as individual investment.
As a result, whether individually or collectively, college debt is very different from other debt.
The issue is that college costs have increased while financial aid as well as merit aid has decreased. Criteria for full rides, the sheer number of full rides, it has shifted incredibly in 10 years. Families on this website complain about it enough, and with reason! And now, almost all colleges package debt into financial aid.
No debt, affordable education is a right that is earned with good grades in high school. Not just for the individual student, but for society.
I agree that paths should be clearer and college shouldn’t be necessary. For instance, Why not have more 11-12th grade apprentice/school programs leading to paid apprenticeships in trades for instance? Why not make CC free for all so that Pell Grants can be used to fund the last 2 years at the 4-year college (often not within commutable distance), except for students whose results are strong enough they can go to the 4-year college for a cost appropriate for their family’s income. [That doesn’t solve the problem of state systems where the CC doesn’t lead to the flagship…]
Invidual debt for students who graduated between 2009 and 2017 is the most striking difference between this generation and past ones. Not because they took un reasonable debt, but because suddenly college costs shifted. So, even though I wouldn’t benefit, I wouldn’t mind if that group got a break, knowing it won’t solve all the other problems.
I think 1NJParent’s point is good: how do we apportion our investment in the collective good? We have to think in terms of ROI but also in terms of justice, equal opportunity, affordability…
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“College is necessary to have a chance at a foothold in the middle class”
Ummmmmm, no. A college education and the potential debt that comes with it is hardly necessary for a middle class existence.
I work with a large group of individuals with zero college experience and everyone of those people are middle class. There are also others with college degrees that are too middle class. There are many careers that do not require a college degree that pay very well.
Why should this portion of the population, that didn’t go to college, be forced to pay for others to go to college?
I worked full time while attending CC full time. I attained an associate’s degree that has allowed me to pursue my dreams. I work side by side with others doing the same job, making the same pay, that have no college experience. None of us have college debt either.
I chose to save for my children’s college education from the time they were born. I knew they would potentially need help. It is going to allow them to attend college pretty much debt free. Why should I put that burden on other taxpayers?
There are many ways to pay for college. There is assistance available. Debt forgiveness doesn’t solve anything in the long run.
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I should have specified: now. I’m guessing most of the people you work with are over 30.
Right now, the only jobs you can have with a simple HS diploma, outside of the truly 1 in a million (professional basketball player, SV genius) don’t pay enough to even pay rent for a 1 bedroom apt and don’t have basic benefits.
The general answer to your other questions is: because we’re a society and investing in collective goods helps us all. But it’s a philosophical debate that doesn’t really belong here.
You are correct, most of the people I work with are over 30. That being said we don’t have an age requirement here and there are individuals in their 20s working here that are making middle class wages.
Serious question: what line of work is it? (NOT rhetorical question)
Because I don’t know any job that doesn’t require some form of post-secondary education that allows one to get to the middle class. The bare minimum I can think of requires some CC certificate (or trade). This would be interesting for kids who aren’t especially academically-minded but don’t want to join the ranks of the “working poor”.
I appreciate the question. Without getting specific, it is a variety of jobs associated with the defense industry. We have welders, painters, electricians, machinists, material handlers, technicians, etc that are all making middle class wages.
There are also many trades that do not require any college experience to earn a middle class wage. In my area there are many that earn close to six figure incomes, some even more, without any college experience. The jobs are out there. These are mostly skilled jobs but many of these skills can be learned on the job.
I hope this answer is helpful. I truly do. I could give you more information by private message if you’d like.
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construction, truck driving, managers at restaurants, managers of retail establishments, many sales jobs
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Do you believe that offspring of educated immigrants in last 30 years will do those kinds of job? No offense to anyone, just genuine question.
Lots of people do turn up their noses at those kinds of jobs. But some of them pay a LOT higher wage than many white collar jobs and carry a lot of responsibility.
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Construction and truck driving do require their own education and training beyond a high school diploma.
Managerial jobs at some organizations seem to be among those subject to credential creep (i.e. requiring a college degree or other credential even though the general and major-specific skills indicated are not needed for the job). Obviously, if it is one’s own business, then that does not apply.
Sales jobs are probably the most common jobs where it is possible to do well without formal education or credentials, although doing well definitely requires sales skills that are not part of the high school curriculum (many self-educate sales skills).
I have personal experience with certain very well paid union trades and they require their members to have an AA/AS. And due to the pay there are many former engineers among their membership. So it’s not true across the board that trades don’t require advanced education beyond a high school diploma.
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Electricians and plumbers are in high demand and are highly compensated in our area (easily six figures if they have even a small crew). And they are in short supply.
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Correct. It’s only 99.9% true that a degree beyond high school is not required.
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I know a LOT of people without a college degree who make decent money and whose career paths are still open to others. I also know a lot of small business owners in all sorts of fields who really don’t care about the degree. What they care about are the results; can the managers motivate their people to be productive and are they good at following through.
No doubt that without a college education or trade school you are foreclosed from many, many jobs. But it doesn’t mean that you are doomed to a lower SES for life. You can still work your way up through the ranks in many service industries to become a manager and the pay can be surprisingly very good. Or I really admire the folks that hustle and cobble together a good living from a bunch of things. Or folks who start their own businesses. I do think that these pathways are harder than the pathways taken by their peers that go to college, and those jobs often have undesirable traits such as being very physically demanding or requiring a lot of weekend work or remote (away from home) work.
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Note that there is a significant range between “without a college degree” and “no education* beyond high school”. Perhaps some of the disagreements in this thread have to do with not everyone using the same definitions, or assuming that “without a college degree” and “no education beyond high school” are the same thing.
*Which can include self-education, on-the-job learning, etc. as well as classroom/lab education/training in some type of school setting (whether the school is called a college or not).
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Sure, one can go into the trades- and probably still buy the book, “The Millionaire Next Door.”
At issue shouldn’t be, imo, whether and Billy or Susie “needs” to go to college to make xx income. And nor those kids devoid of other ideas. It’s about the bright kids who could take the academic path, who have the right skills and prep, have reasonably considered, and find that’s the right direction for them, for their goals.
NOT telling tham they need to go into the trades or that the only way is with exhorbitant debt. Nothing against the trades, btw.
Collectively, we have many ideas how this could work better. Sure. But a lot of NIMBY type thinking (“not on my dime.”) You’ll pay for lots of things in this country or around the world…but not the next kid’s education? Or nothing that hints they may be able to get breaks we didn’t have, back in the day?
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As with almost everything the government chooses to pays for we have little to no say. I’m not against helping kids receive an education, however I am against forgiving debt for a randomly chosen “special cohort” because it’s politically popular at the moment or some economist is espousing that it will somehow juice the economy.
As many have mentioned on this thread, there are better ways to have kids work off their debt: working in underserved areas and serving in the military to name a couple. In addition, perhaps extending debt needs to be tied to the major as well as required academic advising, utilization of career services, etc… I don’t know why so many kids have trouble finding jobs that make enough to pay back the debt, but that should be investigated.
And all of this won’t solve the overarching issue that American higher education institutions are addicted to government money. Until that problem is addressed student debt load isn’t going to improve because we can’t afford “free college” in this country.
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Colorado has a new congresswoman who doesn’t have a hs diploma (she has a GED), so apparently politics is open to those without college too. She owns a restaurant too.
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