Hi all, new here.
I’m a high school junior. Applying to top universities with music programs, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Michigan, Indiana.
I’m having a struggle with my parents on course selection for next year. They seem to think that I NEED to do 4 AP classes my senior year. They claim that these schools are likely to reject me if I don’t have top academics. But I keep telling them that I’m applying to MUSIC school, my main focus has to be MUSIC!
We’ve been using Bienen as our reference school, which I compare my others to.
So, if you were accepted into Bienen, how many AP classes did you do in high school? What was your GPA? Test scores?
Thank you
Hi Albertsax, I can help you out with a little info. When my D toured Bienen, admissions said that they have some latitude with test scores and will consider ACT scores of 27/28 vs the usual range of 32-34 (mid-50%). Bienen focuses on the audition but, as a student can move into another NU school or dual degree, students need to be competitive with the rest of the university overall. I sent you a PM.
Can having test scores and grades above Northwestern’s 75% mark give me an edge in the audition process? Also, what percent of academically qualified applicants (by NU standards) invited to audition are eventually admitted to Bienen?
My son had a stellar GPA with lots of AP classes. However, by senior year he only took two APs. He had completed Calculus BC and both AP Chemistry and AP Physics as a junior when he was still undecided about music vs. engineering. By senior year he knew it was music so didn’t even take a math or science.
As a senior he took core English, AP Gov/Econ, AP music theory, soccer, and orchestra. It was a lovely year after that beating of a junior year!
His SAT was just below the 25th for Northwestern. He opted not to bother trying to improve it. That said, he got into NU, but did not get into Johns Hopkins (he did get into Peabody, but wanted the double degree option available and JHU rejected him). I’m pretty sure his SAT had something to do with that.
If you are above the 75th for both, your senior year APs aren’t going to make a huge difference. Bienen is a very high level music program - my guess is that as long as you are around the 25th academically, grades won’t have much to do with it. It will be all about your playing ability.
Do remember that this is one datapoint! It could vary between instruments and be affected by other factors.
“Can having test scores and grades above Northwestern’s 75% mark give me an edge in the audition process?” In a word, no. The audition stands alone. Academic and music reviews of your application are very separate, according to my D’s tour in August, 2015. (The same holds true for applying for a dual degree. Each school evaluates you separately.) As for your second question, I don’t think anyone outside of Admissions could answer that. But we learned (also in 2015) that 1,100 students applied to Bienen, 660 were invited to audition, and 220 were offered admission. 100 enrolled.
For what it’s worth, my son had good GPA (3.8-ish), very average test scores (24 ACT). No AP’s at all as his school doesn’t offer them. Both NW Bienen and UMich SMTD admissions confirmed that his GPA and test scores would not negatively effect admissions to the music school (BM degree program.) As long as he met their minimums (3.0 and 24, I believe), the rest was strictly up to auditions and the music school admissions process. Same response from USC Thornton.
He didn’t apply to Bienen but he did get into UMich and USC with a merit scholarship offers. At UMich at least, if you want to dual degree, you must be accepted to BOTH SMTD and the other school (e.g. Engineering, LSA, etc.) It’s possible to be accepted at SMTD but rejected by another.
Thanks everyone for the help.
Northwestern was tough for my daughter. She had 4.0 gpa and a very high ACT score and she did not get in. She took 4 AP’s. She was accepted in to some competitive schools and ended up at Tulane.
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@coloraturadad The audition is king, but there was a poster on this site who was desired by the studio at Northwestern, but was denied admission because of academics.
@SpiritManager , I am sure there are exceptions, but I don’t believe a very high level musician student should not apply to one of these high end academic schools in fear of not getting accepted based on academics. If a student does fall below the 25% percentile for one of these schools, why not still apply and see what happens? If invited to audition and the student nails it, at least make it hard on them. You never know. Trust me, I thought the same way as @albertsax parents. I thought my D had no chance in some of these high end academic schools she wanted to apply. I was totally wrong, so my advice to albertsax, spend your time practicing and go for it!
There are some programs which are stricter than others for admission to the university, despite great auditions. That doesn’t mean one needs to be at the same academic level as the non music applicants - but the university needs to be assured the student won’t fail the non music courses. Of course one should go ahead and apply - but just because the auditioning professor says I love you and want you in my studio - that doesn’t mean a guarantee of admission.
D took a lesson at NW last fall and the teacher mentioned that Bienen gets more leeway with marginal standardized test scores in the ED round. I assume that extends to academic rigor as well.
That said, I doubt four APs vs two will be dispositive for Bienen. However, thinking like a parent, if you’re in the range academically otherwise for NW and similar schools, you can apply at the same time for Bienen and the Arts and Sciences side, and should your auditions not go well, or you get injured (unexpected things do happen…) keeping yourself in the game on the academic side isn’t necessarily a bad idea. I always encourage my kids to keep their options open, as long as doing so won’t give them truly undue stress.
There is the consideration of overall “fit” too. I don’t mean this strictly by number but also by personality.
As for numbers, my D had a classmate that went to IU at the same time as she did and dropped out in the first year. IU does not require a high ACT score for an academic acceptance (compared to a school like NW). This student did not pass the academic acceptance but was held for the music school acceptance (the way IU does it…but not all schools). He did pass the music audition (he was a gifted musician but struggled in class work - didn’t know him or his family so I don’t know what the issue was there). He started at IU and was gone by the end of the year. My understanding was he could not handle coursework. There is a risk to entering a college based on the music audition alone. It is something that is not always focused on…and it’s the academic side of music. The course work can be hard, time is VERY limited and competition/talent is high.
Students leave music programs for a variety of reasons. There is a return parent (NYsaxmom?) with 3 kids that started in music and 2 switched…this is VERY common. Sometimes it simply not a good fit as a major once they get to the school…they see other activities that interest them more (and lucky for NYsaxmom for having a kid who focused on making money…I wish I had one of those!!). And…some don’t like the academic side to music. Some can’t pass theory. So where do you go academically at the chosen school if your kids decides music isn’t for them? Is it still a good fit? Changing majors is common and shouldn’t be discouraged. Just something to think about…when making a final decision.
As for personality, my D never seemed interested in Northwestern but we visited the campus and “I” fell in love with it!! So I did a little research (behind her back lol). In the end, I thought it would not be a good fit bc I started to realize that any selective music school was going to be a challenge … and would it be good for her to feel challenged in outside academics as well…or would it be better for those classes to feel more manageable so she could concentrate on music? For some kids a challenge may be fine. My D would have been in the lower 25% there for academics. While she probably would have been OK, I just didn’t think with her personality (she used to be really hard on herself if anything seemed below par) that it would have been a good fit. So we did focused more on schools where she fit in more mid-range or upper level academically…but were selective in music. I also considered where she could go within the school if she changed majors.
I do think you can apply anywhere…and should realize that academics scores are often lower for music students but make sure it is still a good fit overall. I’m starting to ramble…but hopefully this is helpful is some way.
I think @bridgenail makes very good points. There is more to the college experience than just the music lessons. There are one’s peers, the available ensembles, the choices of music to play, the academic offerings, the curriculum requirements, the other offerings at the school, the professors outside one’s field - and the social life, the weather, the location - it all is part of the experience of college. And, yes, many students do change majors - will there be other options at the school or would the student need to transfer? These are all issues to consider in the next, very difficult, stage - which is choosing which school to say yes to!
Even if there are no gen eds, VP students take a lot of courses: Italian, German, French and their corresponding diction classes (as well as one in English diction), music theory and music histor. Some schools “opera workshop” courses include frequent papers.
By the time graduate school applications role around, the undergrad GPA is an important deciding factor for admission because there is a lot of work involved when it comes to preparing your academic support for your final recital material. Some grad schools have a definitive cut-off line for undergrad grades. Something to consider…
I’m not sure if anyone is reading this thread anymore - but thought I’d jump on here and see if it’s even worth my daughter applying to NW? She just texted me to find out (since I’m the resident researcher). She’s heard wonderful things about the jazz bass professor there - but she also does not want to waste her time. You see - she isn’t academically oriented (beyond English which she excels in). Math - forget it - and as a result, she hasn’t taken the ACT or the SAT and in fact, would prefer not to. She is applying at places that don’t require it and that are music oriented - e.g. Berklee, The New School, MSM, etc. I did drop $100 to get her into the SAT as a “wait list” during the last sitting - she showed up but they had no space.
So - has anyone heard of anyone getting into Bienen with less than stellar grades and/or test scores?
Years ago on this forum a flute player was accepted by the studio but denied because of her academics. Unless their attitude has changed I’d say it’s a long shot. But she has a short list- no harm in trying.
Standardized tests scores are certainly required to apply. There is an ACT test on Dec 8 and you can sign up with a late fee until the 19th it looks like? Is she willing to do that? The NU music and common app applications are pretty straight forward to get through at least. Although, if she doesn’t have prescreens lined up that is a pain too? You never know, she could do perfectly fine! Someone earlier in this thread got in with a 24 which is a fine score at the 75% but considerably below NU’s averages. If she tests reasonably high in English/Reading it could really offset a lower math score. And the science test is basically a reading test IMO. The Bienen app is due Dec 1 but the common app is not due until Jan 1.
NU’s acceptance rate is 8% so it’s just a long shot for anyone and everyone. My kid applied and has a great ACT score for NU. They’re picky about homeschool documentation which he doesn’t have. They require 3 SAT-2 tests JUST for homeschoolers, which is ridiculous especially when a homeschooler has a DE transcript, or AP testing, or other outside test scores/references/documentation. There are a very small number of schools that have ridiculous hoops like this . I can kind of see it for engineering/math areas maybe. Anyway - doesn’t give me much faith that NU’s admissions office evaluates as holistically as most other elite schools in general.
@tripletmama: For clarification regarding the student who had a 24 ACT. He was told by Bienen Admissions that the score would not be a problem, but he never applied. Back in 2015, Bienen Admissions told us they accept students with 27/28 vs the usual 31-34 range. Not sure if this has changed.