Big Move for H.S. Sophomore - ?help?

Parents Forum
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<p>My family is contemplating moving from the Northeast to Florida over the summer. It's a pretty sudden move occasioned by an excellent job offer. However, I'm concerned about the implications of this move for my 10th grade daughter, and would appreciate information to help us make wise choices. </p>

<p>My D is an excellent, highly-committed musician. She is first chair on her instrument at her Youth Orchestra, and will be attending a Very Selective summer program. She has attended other highly-regarded summer music programs in the past.</p>

<p>She is also an excellent student at a local private school, one that sends about 20% of the graduating class (of about 150) to the 8 Ivies + Am/Will/Swat + MIT/CalTech. She is very disciplined in her work habits and gets A's in everything, including honors-level math and science. This place offers relatively few actual AP classes, but of course, most of the most competitive kids do end up taking the AP English test (no actual AP English class is offered), at least one AP History, an AP core science, AP Calc and an AP language. Her plan was to pretty much follow that path, with the addition of AP Music Theory.</p>

<p>There is a similar private school in the area we are moving to, but they may not have any more space in their 11th grade. We're working that issue to the best of our ability...</p>

<p>The public school in the area is huge (about 4000 students) and offers both an IB program and AP classes. We are trying to get official information on what her choices there would be. Can anyone who has relevant experience comment on IB programs in general? As compared to AP classes? I hear that the IB program at this school is having trouble maintaining the number of kids they need (altho it is a regional magnet IB program).</p>

<p>My D's long-term plan is pretty fluid right now. She would most likely be competitive for a decent-to-excellent conservatory, but she might well prefer to be a science major at a university that offers great instrumental playing opportunities. </p>

<p>I'm looking mostly for info regarding the IB/AP part of this conundrum...a slightly complicating factor is that her summer music program ends about a week after the public high school's opening day (what the heck is that about? Whoever heard of school beginning in early August? Do kids from the south never go to programs like TASP, ISS, Aspen, Encore, Meadowmount, BUTI, etc.?????)</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for reading and responding.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>There was a thread last week about moving a kid in the middle of high school in which I included some of my experience of doing that. I'm not going to type it all out again, but you may want to look.</p></li>
<li><p>AP vs. IB: lots of people here will have opinions. Here's mine:</p></li>
</ol>

<p>AP courses are a la carte offerings, and the same course will vary a lot school to school, ranging from mediocre to great depending (as always) on the teacher and how he or she approaches and supplements the core material. In general AP courses tend to be very content-driven (to cover everything that will "be on the test"), and sort of a Appleby's-level version of college intro survey courses.</p>

<p>IB is a program that originated in England and seeks to standardize a version of English upper-class education. It is a unified curriculum that is much more focused on method and process than on specific content, and aims for depth rather than breadth. It also strives for some degree of international uniformity in teaching and grading -- and certainly the final exams are assessed on a worldwide standard. IB looks great on paper, but is hard to do well unless you have a large program with a choice of course offerings, experienced faculty, and a school day that accommodates the number of periods the IB diploma program requires (many, many schools don't have that).</p>

<p>My son was all set to join his school's inaugural IB diploma cohort when he got cold feet and dropped out at the last minute. Two years on, that was one of the best decisions he's ever made. The IB kids have been desperately unhappy, and he has had a great experience taking mundane AP classes from great teachers with great classmates. (He is still taking IB Latin, though, and he very much prefers that curriculum to the AP Latin curriculum -- with which he is intimately familiar, since the AP and IB classes meet at the same time in the same room with the same teacher.)</p>

<p>IB courses come in two flavors: Standard Level and Upper Level. From what I have seen, Standard Level is probably as or more advanced than most AP classes, except perhaps for Physics C and the like. Most of them are two years long (although I think there are some one-year SL courses), culminating in a single two-day exam that (unlike the AP test) does not include multiple-choice. IB diploma programs also include a mandatory course on scholarly methodology and critical thinking, and a ton of service-learning requirements.</p>

<p>Basically, I would take my cue from the kids at the school. If the IB program isn't popular and competitive to get into, there's probably a good reason for that.</p>

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<p>A few questions Memake -
Are you moving to South Florida, "mid-Florida"(greater Tampa, Orlando or the atl coast), Jacksonville or the Panhandle? Only the Panhandle is really "the South"
The school with the APs you listed is her current school, correct? The first time I read your post, I think I read that wrong.</p>

<p>Have you/she considered a boarding music high school, like Interlochen? The state of Florida may well have one as well.</p>

<p>School does start very early in the South in general, although in P'cola where they were starting VERY early, they are starting a couple of weeks later this year, because they are discontinuing the mid-fall break, I believe. </p>

<p>Yes, kids do go to summer programs, but it is an issue because the August starts are the norm. Here, the private schools generally start either with the publics, or a few days later, typically around Aug 16th. It is good for APs, though, I've heard of kids posting here from the NE that don't finish until early June.</p>

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<p>How strong is the instrumental music program at the private and public FL schools? That could be even more important to your D in terms of fitting in and making friends. Is boarding school an option?</p>

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<p>Here's the recent thread:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=336862%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=336862&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>We are in an IB high school which substantially converted from AP about 4 or 5 years ago. My kids are not happy with it. Unless you are committed to the degree program, it is much harder to get college credit for the classes. To get college credit you have to score 6 or 7 on the higher level (2 year) course exam. So where AP classes are 1 year, you have to commit to the 2 year course to get comparable consideration. That limits the number of classes you can take outside the program. For example, it was impossible for D to stay in her music program and do the degree program. While she took a number of standard level classes for the extra challenge, they will not count in the testing. The HS in district next to ours had a parent revolt and reverted to AP.</p>

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<p>IM me with where in S FL you are intending to move. Our local HS is huge, but offers numerous APs, an IB program in the county, school symphony and county orchestra. Many kids cross-enroll with local college.</p>

<p>S chose AP program, because could remain in neighborhood school. As I work, he had flexibility to do ECs and not stick to a schedule. All but one of his close friends did the same. Many parents liked the flexibility of AP program. There was at least one controversial AP teacher, and some kids took Honors not AP in these classes to avoid the teacher(s).</p>

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<p>JHS: I believe the IB Program originated in Switzerland, not in England. ?</p>

<p>I do think that the IB curriculum, when done well, is excellent preparation for college and certainly encourages critical thinking-- completely different from most AP classes. </p>

<p>I agree, however, that the quality of an IB program really depends on the school, their offerings (broad or narrow?), and the quality and training of the teachers involved. When done well, IB is definitely worth it, certainly in terms of what those students do, how they learn (and how they gain a different approach to learning), and also just in gaining a better understanding of the world around them. </p>

<p>My daughter graduated with an IB diploma, as well as a having taken a ton of AP courses-- a very tough program, but one that served her very well. The IB program at her school started out with about 50 students; by the end, I think it was closer to 35. Not many kids choose to stay with it, mostly because the courses and the requirements interfere with other things they'd rather to be doing. It can be restrictive, for sure. Certainly, the best IB programs are the ones that offer a broad range of courses from which to choose; many schools can't or don't offer a broad range, so many IB programs tend to be lop-sided in favor of the sciences or the humanities.
The exams are also very difficult--much more difficult than AP exams.</p>

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<p>jack: IB headquarters is now in Geneva, but I'm pretty sure it originated as a sort of certification program for the children of English diplomats and business execs who didn't want to leave their kids in Old Blighty when they were posted overseas. It has some ambitious goals, one of which is sort of a unified consensus global college-prep curriculum, and to that end it tries hard to cover its Anglo-Saxon roots. I think, though, that its appeal is largely in the U.K., the Commonwealth, and the U.S., and other places where people are oriented towards higher education in English-speaking countries.</p>

<p>(During the period when my son was planning to do IB, I was on a sort of informal parent committee looking into it, and meeting with IB representatives. One of us even spent a morning at the Geneva offices -- he was there on other business anyway. We all admired the IB program a lot, and were excited about it. All of our kids bailed on it at the last minute, for a variety of reasons -- impossible to do two languages, too hard to schedule science research projects, conflicts with orchestra, poor science offerings, conflicts with a very popular 12th-grade seminar, and, finally, loss of critical mass among the academically ambitious, competitive students who wanted to be in class with each other.)</p>

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<p>A kid who goes to a school that sends 20% to ivies is likel;y to find most schools in the Country extremely easy. Thes schools usually have their students far advanced from a typical HS program.</p>

<p>The problem is that if the private school is Fla is comparable to her present school, it's probably going to be pretty hard to get in at this stage. They usually have long waitlists and people begging, borrowing aand making huige donations to get in.</p>

<p>The good news is that if your daughter was at the top of a strong school, she'll do well anywhere and IB or AP won't matter. She'll also have an easier shot at top colleges from a public because usually when a school sends so many ivy like her current one, many are legacies or wealthy enough to be giving big donations making it harder for those not in that category.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
for a variety of reasons -- impossible to do two languages, too hard to schedule science research projects, conflicts with orchestra, poor science offerings, conflicts with a very popular 12th-grade seminar, and, finally, loss of critical mass among the academically ambitious, competitive students who wanted to be in class with each other.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This does depend largely on the diploma program though. I know people in more than one language. One would not count in their diploma, but you can take whatever certificates you like, most schools have more than six periods, and most people finish at least on SL in 11th grade. Similarly I know people in three sciences. If the school does not offer all the sciences then I suppose the offerings would be poor, although the IB science curriculums themselves are not inherently substandard if well taught as far as I can tell (my public school has only IB, but the county HSs are split between AP and IB so I know people in both. The difficulty level is about the same but they are different. Physics C might be another story but HL (higher level) physics is pretty hard. There honestly really isn't anyone at my school acing HL...we probably won't even have any 7s on SL, yet we have some of the highest scores overall and an excellent teacher who is very accomplished as a physicist). People do orchestra or a non IB fine art here too, if they want. IB Theory of Music alternates every other year so people take it in their junior or senior year. </p>

<p>However every diploma program is a little different. It generally does seem to be the case that the program will not be as good if it is combined with AP offerings as AP was probably "there first" so that leaves less room to pick up all the IB offerings. You will generally see far less of the problems above at an all IB school, but it seems they are often present at AP/IB schools. If it is a regional magnet I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's going to be rather "school within a school"ish because they probably require kids to do diploma if they transfer in and if they're concentrating offers regionally, they probably have most of the offerings. At regional magnets within non-magnet schools, I would not necessarily be concerned with under-enrollment, because the implications of attending these schools if they aren't your base school are often that parents have to provide transportation, long drive, etc, and people on the far side of the "region" don't even consider it. A better indication would be whether students who start in the program generally finish it. Also, in IB programs, 7s are relatively rare, but passing is not. They're tight on one end but relatively generous on the other. So an absence of 7s doesn't indicate anything, but lots of scores below 4 may indicate they aren't doing the internal assessments well, people aren't trying very hard, etc - generally if you give a good faith effort towards completing the work and studying for the paper, you should get a 3 or 4, although that isn't worth much in the US anyway, but technically "passing" by most accounts. Science (particularly physics) and higher level math are different stories though, generally lower scores there in American schools.</p>

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<p>No boarding school option at her present private school? Friends she could live with while she finishes?</p>

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<p>(D*mn, I typed a reply and then wasn't allowed to post until I re-entered my pw. Well, here goes another try.)</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for pitching in.</p>

<p>Nope, no boarding option where she is. Also, I'm not ready to have her away yet! </p>

<p>Jazzymom and cangel: I don't think she's ready to give up on serious academics yet (and I don't think she should) so we're not so interested in Interlochen or an arts magnet school. I hear the public h.s. has a strong orchestra program, however, which meets after regular academic day is over, so that's a good thing. She'll probably rely more on private teacher and youth orchestra for challenge and progress, however.</p>

<p>cangel and bookworm: i'll send a pm with location details -- i don't want to go any more public than I already have, being somewhat shy and all.</p>

<p>jhs, singersmom, princedog: thanks for relating experiences with IB -- it sounds like such a complicated program to judge from the outside.<br>
We'll spend some time calling families who have had kids in the IB program at the school to try to find out how it's been, of course. In general, I feel that you guys are reinforcing my gut feeling about IB -- it's a bit too rigid on the outside, and it's hard to tell what you really get out of it on the inside. (don't know if that made sense; i'm in a rush here).</p>

<p>suze: thanks for the good thought -- I think you're right about D doing well in any of the programs, and hopefully the competitive advantage of coming from a public school will work in her favor. Saving the $$ won't be so bad either. We're still hoping the private school might make room for her, but can't count on that.</p>

<p>Thanks again to all...</p>

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<p>On your last point about schools starting in early August in the South: As someone who attends high school in Tennessee, I can honestly tell you I hadn't heard of any of those programs before joining CC. The "big" programs here are school-based or something like that. In fact, I didn't even realize that most schools start in September until a year ago.</p>

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<p>memake
If you are moving to southeast Florida, PM me and I will try to provide some information on local schools and offerings.</p>

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<p>I don't think IB is "rigid on the outside" per se. What makes it rigid is when a school has a small program with limited course offerings, and IB doesn't control the scheduling. I think if you pay attention to Princedog's post, you'll recognize that if a school goes all-IB it can offer very flexible programming. Most of the courses are two-year courses, but you would probably want that anyway (i.e., two more years of English, math, science, history, foreign language).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
On your last point about schools starting in early August in the South: As someone who attends high school in Tennessee, I can honestly tell you I hadn't heard of any of those programs before joining CC. The "big" programs here are school-based or something like that. In fact, I didn't even realize that most schools start in September until a year ago.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL, Virginia law says that schools can't start before Labor Day. It really annoys a lot of people because a school can get special dispensation, but it's very difficult to do and takes a long time. I honestly see no earthly reason for this law but I'm sure there was one, somewhere, somehow, at one time. But most of the south does end in May and start in August. Even a lot of the Midwest, from what I know, schools start in late August. </p>

<p>
[quote]
thanks for relating experiences with IB -- it sounds like such a complicated program to judge from the outside.
We'll spend some time calling families who have had kids in the IB program at the school to try to find out how it's been, of course. In general, I feel that you guys are reinforcing my gut feeling about IB -- it's a bit too rigid on the outside, and it's hard to tell what you really get out of it on the inside.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's not too complicated, it's just unfamiliar to many people. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to do my best, but generally, IB is more of a...holistic, I suppose would be the word, program, than AP. The emphasis is more thematic. Some subjects have a tendency to go more in depth - history generally covers a few themes very in depth (we still have to meet state standards though, so we end up covering all the material - last year we used the Princeton Review AP US History to review for the SOL). But we spent months covering everything about Mao, reading several books by historians, whereas my friends in AP thought that was funny because they just did Mao in a day. I don't think either way is "better" or "harder" - my personal view is, whether it's a little bit about of lot of things, or a lot about a little, what matters is that the student is intellectually challenged and exposed to the process of learning through that. Since they will figure out what to specialize in later on in college and the excess material will be largely irrelevant at that point anyway. But I think some people probably react better to one way, but on the other hand most people will probably do fine with either, but would enjoy one way more. </p>

<p>But the science and math in particular tend to go more for breadth. Again, I don't think this is better or worse necessarily. It may be better for some kids, particularly those who need to continually work with material, since the IB math classes that cover calculus also largely work with the advanced algebra topics. Personally, I'd be doing better grade wise in a straight AP calc type course than I'm doing in HL Methods, but the truth is, I probably would be worse off in the long run, because it would just be masking my weaknesses, but that's of little consequence to me because I have no plan to go into anything particularly dominated by math. I really shouldn't even be in HL math. But for those who do, HL Methods (and Further math, I suppose, though that's rarely offered in America because so few kids sequence up to it) can actually be quite useful. Because it's not straight calc and we do a ton of work with 3D vectors and advanced trig and algebra, and also more extended problems that go through several topics. The kids interested in engineering really enjoy this, personally I couldn't care less, but it certainly appeals to its niche. </p>

<p>As for science, I'm in SL physics, it's certainly challenging enough for me but then again I don't have much aptitude for science so I wouldn't be the best source for anyone who does. HL Physics is really difficult, even the pretty natural kids are struggling with that, but SL probably wouldn't be such a reach for them. One thing to look into is availability because some schools won't offer HLs in every science, particularly if they offer the AP version, BUT if they have an established diploma program they probably do. Biology is automatically HL at my school, which is another thing to watch for, but some people take the first year and then take IB Environmental Systems in 12th grade. I really enjoy Theory of Knowledge, which is the required philosophy class. I find English and History challenging, engaging, and enlightening. But Many AP programs sound to me to have all of those qualities as well. I think if it's a school with good offerings either way, you're in good shape. She may be able to mix and match AP with IB certificate classes.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
LOL, Virginia law says that schools can't start before Labor Day. It really annoys a lot of people because a school can get special dispensation, but it's very difficult to do and takes a long time. I honestly see no earthly reason for this law but I'm sure there was one, somewhere, somehow, at one time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's the "King's Dominion Law". :D</p>

<p>In case you want to read more about it:
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11932-2004Oct6.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11932-2004Oct6.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I could suggest some schools if your moving to southeast Florida</p>

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<p>My DS is finishing his IB diploma this month. It has been a fantastic program for him, but he is mature and motivated. It helps to enter the program with the focus to crunch through an assignment (ie, strong writing skills). He's off to Dartmouth in the fall (he's delighted with that school). At our school, strong music interests sometimes conflict with some of the IB offerings, which makes the music director nuts. Across the county, another high school has AP, and that combines more easily for a student who wants specialty music (eg, band plus jazz band)</p>

<p>Is it at all possible for DD to visit the potential IB program now, before school lets out? Students there might give a better picture plus warm the transition. Our IB crowd is warm and well bonded.</p>