Big name public universities (Berkeley/UVA/Michigan/UNC/UCLA) Versus Non-HYP ivies

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<p>I think you missed the point. I am saying that those who score 163 and pay 200k to attend a law school that will not provide them the opportunity to pay off their loans are making poor investments. Comparing paying for law school with financing undergrad is ridiculous for the following reasons: (1) law school is, on average, a lot more expensive than undergrad; and (2) law schools provide far less need-based aid than undergrads.</p>

<p>With a 163, you are likely to only get into tier 2 law schools, with little to no scholarship. I referenced UCLA’s low placement into biglaw in order to convey the notion of how difficult it is to obtain a job in this economic environment that can pay off your loans in a relatively short period of time. Some want to get a law degree to work in sports law, for the federal government, etc. However, the caveats include the following: (1) sports law is very insular; (2) the federal government law jobs – such as the DOJ, SEC, USAO – are at least, if not more, difficult to obtain than biglaw positions because of the downturn in biglaw hiring leading to an influx of applications for fed gov jobs; (3) many PI jobs are very difficult to get as well now; (4) clerkship applications have increased 5X in the past year for many districts. Paying 200k to attend a law school that will probably not provide you the opportunity to pay off your loans is just stupid.</p>

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<p>If you can get a good-sized scholarship and are realistic about your job prospects, then attending law school is not a bad idea. However, if you are paying 200k and expect, or need, biglaw when your school places 5% into biglaw, then attending law school is not a wise investment. Further, paying 200k when your school has low, overall employment rates – many law schools have low employment rates both at graduation and 9 months after – is stupid. I know Harvard Law graduates who have been deferred and no-offered; V10 firms have no-offered 80% to 100% of their SA classes for the class of 2009; and that this past OCI was the most brutal it has EVER been. There is an excess supply of lawyers in the United States, and I believe that many people do not do enough research regarding employment prospects before committing 200k at 8% interest – the current rate – to law school.</p>

<p>Huh? Highest no-offer rate in the V10 was Weil at 22%, and they’re hardly real V10. But I agree that going to law school is a bad idea for the majority of law students.</p>

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<p>V100* </p>

<p>@ fallen. I am not an attorney, but I know a lot about law school/the legal profession because my fiancee is a recent law grad, working for a v20. In addition, my best friend works for the DOJ and I am surrounded by attorneys.</p>

<p>Yeah, employment statistics definitely need to be taken with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>SMU Dedman School of Law is now officially willing to pay law firms to hire its graduates…
If your firm has an identified need for a new associate, we encourage you to Test Drive one of our graduates for a month at our expense. The law school will fund $3,500 for the graduate’s first month of employment at your firm and will consider funding an additional month of employment if you and the graduate intend to continue the relationship toward full-time employment. On the other hand, if you or the graduate determines after one month not to pursue long-term employment, there is no further obligation.</p>

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<p>Isn’t there a slight difference in SAT averages, If Michigan and other schools don’t super score?</p>

<p>yes, non-super scorers will be lower. i’ve read on here estimates of 20-40 (on 1600 scale) point increases if the schools were to super score</p>

<p>OK, one last comment then. So your whole argument is predicated on whether they have to borrow $200K. Many don’t, you know. And not all are that expensive, since a 163 can’t possibly get into the t14 according to you. Anyway, my point is you use words poorly. What you are really saying is that IF you have to borrow a lot of money to go to law school and IF that law school is not a t14, then going to law school is a bad idea. Based on that premise you choose to describe a 163 as a “freaking horrendous” score, but not because it is actually a bad score, compared to all the people that take the test and the large number of non-t14 law schools it can get you into. Thank you for confirming that, but it still makes no sense to use that terminology. It would have been a lot more direct in the first place (post 178 and especially post 192) if you had just said “Hey, a 163 cannot get you into a t14 and since the job market for non-t14 grads is rather poor right now (me- of course in 3 years things could be very different, but who knows), if you have to borrow a lot of money to go you might want to reconsider”.</p>

<p>Saying a 163 is a “freaking horrendous” score is not only inaccurate, it said nothing to the points you apparently were trying to get across and distracted from the point you made in post 181, the closest you came to making the argument. Of course there you say nothing about going into big debt. Again, many of these people have families that can afford to send them or at least pay part of it. If my S goes to law school he has money left from his college fund and we could afford some, so he would owe far less than the kinds of $$ you mention, and we are not wealthy by any means. Of course it is rational to say that owing a ton of money when you get out is a bad idea if you can’t get a decent job. That’s true for any major. Someone could get perfect GRE scores, get a PhD in Spanish Lit, and owe a lot of money without the prospect for a job. You can’t say their GRE scores were “freaking horrendous”, only that they made a financially unwise decision. That is the point you are apparently really trying to make.</p>

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<p>It could be true, or it could be yet another myth. While school declare on their website that they do not superscore the SAT scores, is there any guarantee that they do nor report the highest scores to the magazines? Are there any special instructions on the Common Data Set that schools can or cannot report the highest scores?</p>

<p>As much as people here have been repeating the same stories, it is obvious that only the people who respond to the form and know the data know for sure. All of us are left to idle speculation … and this no matter how one pretends to KNOW. </p>

<p>Perhaps we should ask the people who fill the surveys for Clemson or Wisconsin to tell us the truth! ;)</p>

<p>As xiggi points out, there is no way of determining how superscoring affects reported SAT ranges and averages. But until reporting of SATs and ACTs have been standardized and audited, comparing schools based on those criteria should be taken with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>We had very comprehensive discussions on “Quality of Student” regarding % in the top 10% of their high school class, % of acceptance rate, and standard tests e.g., LSAT, SATs and ACTs. Even though there is no perfect method in “Quality of Student” assessment, we still can learn something from the imperfect data. The following are my observations and comments:</p>

<p>(1) % in the top 10% of their high school class (or class rank) </p>

<p>The result of student’s four-year overall academic performance is supposed to be the most comprehensive one, but it isn’t the case because the quality of education varies school by school. There are thousands upon thousands of high schools in the country, and everyone has a version of top 10%. For examples, a top 10% student of a local high school may not be as competitive as an average student of Thomas Jefferson High School (TJHSST). </p>

<p>Realizing that high schools are not created equal, how can one get a fair evaluation? No need to worry. We don’t underestimate the brain power of these elite universities’ admission officers. They know your ”District” as much as your local real estate agents since they keep track of the alumni’s performance of your district years in and years out. And they know which “Districts’” number 1s and/or top 10% are very good and which are not so good? That’s why ECs, ACT, SAT, SATII, IBs, etc… come into play besides GPAs and class rank. </p>

<p>Lastly, I would like to direct your attentions on acceptance and matriculation results of valedictorians and salutatorians for Rice’s Class of 2011. As discussed in the cc’s Rice discussion group, 50% of 850 high school valedictorians and salutatorians were admitted. The matriculation rates of these #1s, #2s, and 6-10% were as low as 25.7%, 34.8%, and 51% (see Table 1). They have more choices of schools after March 31. </p>

<p>Table 1
Rank %Acceptance %Matriculation</p>

<h1>1 51.4% 25.7%</h1>

<h1>2 51.8% 34.8%</h1>

<p>6-10% 21.0% 51.0%
11-20% 14.0% 64.1%
21-30% 12.0% 77.8%
31-40% 9.5% 90.9%
41-50% 7.5% 66.7%
Unranked 20.1% 25.4%</p>

<p>Besides, many high schools do not rank their students. If a university has greater than 50% of applicants who do not have class rank information, how could she justifies any number (%) greater than 50, let alone reporting 90ish % in the top 10%?</p>

<p>(2) % of acceptance rate </p>

<p>Another difference between the big name public universities (BNPU) and non-HYP ivies is the way they treat in-state (IS) and out-of-state (OOS) applicants. For BNPU, OOS applicants are more difficult to be accepted than IS, but such difference is not significant for the non-HYP ivies. For BNPU, OOS/IS ratio is a useful index of diversity of student body: The higher the ratio is; the more diversified and selective (competitive) the student body would be. UVA, Michigan, and W&M are typical schools of this kind, each recorded with about 1:2 OOS/IS ratio, and therefore the dynamic of out-of-staters have greater impacts culturally, financially and academically. This post, I focus only on the last part, academic impacts. Let me take UVA’s admission stats of Class 2014 as an example (see Table 2).</p>

<p>Table 2 UVA’s admission stats of Class 2014 </p>

<p>Total applications received: 22,520</p>

<p>Virginia applications: 7,864 (35 percent)</p>

<p>Out-of-state applications: 14,656 (65 percent)</p>

<p>Total offers made by UVA: 6,907 (31 percent)</p>

<p>Virginia offers: 3,380 (43 percent of Virginia applications)</p>

<p>Out-of-state offers: 3,527 (24 percent of out-of-state applications)</p>

<p>Summary of observations:</p>

<p>Fact1: The majority of UVA applicants are from OOS and OOS applicants (14,656) are twice as many as IS applicants (7,864).</p>

<p>Comments1: As an OOS applicant, you belong to the majority like the other private institutions that you apply to.</p>

<p>Fact2: UVA offered about equal number of offers to OOS (3,527) and IS (3380) applicants, which makes their OOS (24 % accepted) twice as selective as IS (43 % accepted)</p>

<p>Comments2: As an OOS applicant, UVA offers you equal number of spots as those reserved for IS but in so doing, % of acceptance rate for OOS is lowered to 24%, which put them among the elite group of schools e.g., Chicago (18%), Williams (18%), Cornell (18%), Washington (20%), Johns Hopkins (20%), Berkeley (21%), Northwestern (23%), Rice (23%), Notre Dame (27%), and Emory (29%).</p>

<p>(3) SAT scores</p>

<p>SAT is administered by one well-respected testing organization (ETS). Through the years, ETS strives to develop the SAT tests that adequately (quantitatively and statistically) reflect what a high school student should learn in reading, math, and writing; and almost every university requires its applicants to submit SAT. Therefore, I believe SAT scores would be good tools in cross-universities “Quality of Student” evaluations.</p>

<p>Alex and xiggi, even though there is no way of determining how superscoring affects reported SAT ranges and averages, yet I assume that every school does super-score SAT scores unless it declares otherwise. </p>

<p>As a starting point, Table 3 presents the ranking of some of the most popular national universities based on the summation of first two SAT scores (reading and writing) by the order of 50% SAT. One can retrieve those do not super-score SAT scores to create a new table for them.</p>

<p>Lesdiablesbleus,</p>

<p>Your post as follows: “Yeah, the top 5% of Michigan, UVA and Berkeley students are HYP material while the next 20% are probably Ivy/Stanford/Duke/<em>insert top private school</em> material. However, the middle 50% of these schools compare favorably to schools like BC, Rochester, Tulane and Lehigh instead. Finally, the bottom 25% of these universities actually belong in a community college or a low-tier state school and only got admitted to UM/UVA/UCB due to athletics/geographical quotas/belonging to a specialty vocational school like Nursing.”</p>

<p>Regardless what you intent to express your viewpoints about Michigan, UVA and Berkeley students, still your breakdowns, though not quantitatively (supported by data), brought something worthy for brainstorming and discussions.</p>

<p>Observation:</p>

<p>Based on 50% SAT data in Table 3 (for now), top 5 schools are HYPWashingtonColumbia instead of HYPSM.</p>

<p>As an example, Berkeley’s 75% was 1460, which was as good as number 4 ranked Dartmouth’s 50% and number 1 ranked Yale’s 40%. Such results indicated that the top 25% (instead of 5%) of Berkeley’s students are HYP material while the next 25% are probably Ivy/Stanford/Duke/<em>insert top private school</em> material. </p>

<p>Table 3 SAT scores (reading and math) for Class 2013
University 25% 50% 75%
1 Yale 1400 1490 1580
2 Princeton 1390 1485 1580
3 Harvard 1380 1475 1570
4 Washington University 1380 1460 1540
5 Columbia 1360 1455 1550
6 Dartmouth 1330 1440 1550
6 U Penn 1350 1440 1530
6 Duke 1340 1440 1540
9 Northwestern 1350 1435 1520
9 Stanford 1330 1435 1540
11 Brown 1320 1425 1530
11 Rice 1320 1425 1530
13 University of Chicago 1310 1420 1530
14 Vanderbilt 1330 1415 1500
15 Notre Dame 1320 1410 1500
16 Cornell 1290 1395 1500
16 Carnegie Mellon 1290 1395 1500
18 Emory 1300 1385 1470
18 Johns Hopkins 1280 1385 1490
20 Georgetown 1250 1355 1460
21 College of William and Mary 1240 1345 1450
22 Georgia Tech 1250 1335 1420
22 University of Virginia 1230 1335 1440
24 UC Berkeley 1200 1330 1460
24 University of Michigan 1230 1330 1430
26 University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign 1200 1315 1430
27 UNC Chapel Hill 1210 1300 1390
28 University of Wisconsin 1170 1285 1400
29 UCLA 1150 1275 1400
30 UC San Diego 1140 1255 1370</p>

<p>modeling, sit back review your SAT table #3 and let us know where is MIT</p>

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<p>I am confused about these “top 30”. There are schools not on the list that have higher scores. How did you pick these?</p>

<p>JohnAdams:</p>

<p>“As a starting point, Table 3 presents the ranking of some of the most popular …
Based on 50% SAT data in Table3 (for now)…”</p>

<p>Table 3 is for illustration purpose. I leave MIT out intentionally.</p>

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<p>Why stop at such a high number? Why not try to establish what the bottom 1st or 2nd percentile is for HYP, and use THAt as yardstick? After all, who would decree that the student who was accepted with the absolute lowest SAT in the history of HYP was … NOT Ivy League material? Then, what is your conclusion? That close to 100% of Berkeley is indeed HYP material? </p>

<p>By the way, I hope you do realize that taking the average of the 25th and 75th percentiles does not necessarily give you the 50th percentile?</p>

<p>^ xiggi, why does it bother you so much? :)</p>

<p>“By the way, I hope you do realize that taking the average of the 25th and 75th percentiles does not necessarily give you the 50th percentile?”</p>

<p>Actually xiggi, I hope you realize that it pretty much does, within 5-10 points. Mathematically, with a sample size that runs in the thousands, the average between the 25th percentile and the 75th percentile pretty much gravitates to the 50th percentile.</p>

<p>modeling, so you took MIT and Caltech out of the SAT rankings in order to make this statement:</p>

<p>“Based on 50% SAT data in Table 3 (for now), top 5 schools are HYPWashingtonColumbia instead of HYPSM.”</p>

<p>Well, in that case, why not also take out Yale, Princeton and Harvard so that you can now say:</p>

<p>“Based on 50% SAT data in Table 3 (for now), top 5 schools are WashingtonColumbiaDartmlouthPennDuke instead of HYPSM.”</p>

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<p>I’d rather go to Brown/Dartmouth over any publics. I’d take where I’m currently going (UCLA) over Penn or Cornell though. Just personal preference.</p>

<p>arcarefire, curious, why this?:</p>

<p>Brown/Darmouth > UCLA > Penn/Cornell</p>

<p>Is it the size?</p>

<p>if you are going to go to a school with large enrollment then might as well be UCLA?</p>

<p>is this it?</p>

<p>I’m pretty much taking the viewpoint that these schools are all “good enough” (top 30) where I can just choose based on fit. </p>

<p>Well, I’m absolutely in love with Brown. That’s my top choice in the entire world (sadly, I was waitlisted…life goes on!). I love the curriculum, vibe, area, etc. etc.</p>

<p>I haven’t been to Dartmouth but everything I’ve read about the school makes it seem ideal. I like how small it is in particular.</p>

<p>I’m not going to say I for sure would not consider Penn or Cornell had I gotten in/applied. I haven’t actually had a chance to visit. I love UCLA and feel like a great fit at the school. It also has a high enough ranked program for my major (top 15) where I don’t feel like the general prestige of the ivies is enough to just pick them. I guess my preferences are really just based on fit (or at least, how I perceive I would fit, since I have not been to Penn or Cornell). My perceptions: Penn is known for having a “pre-professional” vibe, which doesn’t fit in with my personality in the slightest. Not that I’m not “professional”, it’s just not the lens with which I’m viewing school. As for Cornell, I don’t love the area.</p>

<p>Financial aid is also helping me quite a bit at UCLA (I’m going for free just about), and I reckon my financial package would not be as great at the ivies.</p>