<p>Xiggi, TAs at Michigan are ALWAYS graduate students. There are no exceptions made. In most major departments in the school of LSA, 100% of TAs are Doctoral students (in other words, done with all their course work and in the process of completing their thesis). Foreign Languages, Sociology, Communications and Mathematics are probably the only exceptions I can think of. I am not familiar with what happens in some colleges, such as Nursing and Education. Clearly, there would appear to be Master’s students TAing in those colleges, but virtually never in the school of LSA.</p>
<p>I am not sure why we are even discussing this. Cal and Michigan use TAs exactly in the same way that any other major research university with over 5,000 graduate students does. Below are some graduate school matriculation figures:</p>
<p>Columbia: 17,000 graduate students
Harvard: 14,000 graduate students
Penn: 10,000 graduate students
Chicago: 9,000 graduate students
Stanford: 8,500 graduate students
Northwestern: 8,000 graduate students
Duke: 7,000 graduate students
Cornell: 6,500 graduate students
MIT: 6,000 graduate students
Yale: 6,000 graduate students</p>
<p>Now tell me, how do those thousands of graduate students on each campus manage to pay their way through graduate school again? Would you say that those universities make less use of their TAs or would you just say that their TAs are superior since they are graduate students in private universities?</p>
<p>Alexandre, except for the fact that UCB brought it up again, I am sure why there is a need to discuss. The entire discussion of last night was in reply to Quote Number 2. It is obvious that it is NOT true that only doctoral students may become TAs. As I wrote it IS incredibly easy to demonstrate that more than doctoral students function as TAs.</p>
<p>As far as the lack of training and qualifications, let it be in the eye of the beholder. Nothing will ever make me change my mind about the use of that kind of TAs. If it is absolutely, utterly wrong to have a UG involved in the education of one his or peers, the use of Master’s candidates only represents a small improvement from a huge negative to a large negative. </p>
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<p>Why would that be important to undergraduate students? Does the use of cheap labor --sometimes called indentured servitude-- benefit the UG students? Do they get a discount for being taught by other students? </p>
<p>Is this another example of the dedication to teaching UNDERGRADUATES at research universities? Or is it an issue to manage costs, lowering the teaching duties of a faculty that has a different raison d’etre, and “helping” graduate students afford their education? </p>
<p>Again, none of that benefits the undergraduate student!</p>
xiggi, the title of this thread is big name public universities vs. ivies (and, by extension, other top private universities). I think I’m right in pointing out that these practices you rail against are not uncommon at top research universities. If the thread was big public research universities vs. LACs, you’d have a better point.</p>
<p>"Alexandre, except for the fact that UCB brought it up again, I am sure why there is a need to discuss. The entire discussion of last night was in reply to Quote Number 2. It is obvious that it is NOT true that only doctoral students may become TAs. As I wrote it IS incredibly easy to demonstrate that more than doctoral students function as TAs.</p>
<p>As far as the lack of training and qualifications, let it be in the eye of the beholder. Nothing will ever make me change my mind about the use of that kind of TAs. If it is absolutely, utterly wrong to have a UG involved in the education of one his or peers, the use of Master’s candidates only represents a small improvement from a huge negative to a large negative. "</p>
<p>Xiggi, I repeat, there are no undergraduate TAs at Michigan. </p>
<p>As for my statement about only Doctoral students being offered TA positions, I was referring purely to the college of LSA. Keep in mind that very few graduate programs in the college of LSA offer a Master’s track, and the few that do, like Economics, specify that only Doctoral students are considered for TA positions. Of course, there are occasions where first or second year graduate students are offered positions as TAs, but it is extremely rare and in very few departments, such as Foreign Language.</p>
<p>But xiggi, if your point is that all research universities shortchange undergrads, you should make it clear when you criticize Cal, Michigan and Wisconsin etc… that you are equally critical of Columbia, Stanford and Chicago etc…</p>
<p>How would you know what “most people do”? You’ve just finished your freshman year in college (maybe your soph, not sure); you’ve never even been in the real world; your idea of the real world is filtered through your parents. Plenty of people say Wharton instead of Penn. And plenty of other people say Penn instead of Wharton. And some people use both. Really, it’s not the big gotcha you thought it was.</p>
<p>I think people that went to Wharton tend to say Wharton more, because it is specific. If you say Penn it leaves open the question of your major, etc. unless you specifically asked about an MBA (which admittedly is usually the case with me). But if a business school grad just says “Wharton”, unless the other person is ignorant of the affiliation, it answers both questions at the same time.</p>
<p>Why is the point of repeating the same statement over and over. My point was not ONLY about UG TAs or only about Michigan. I wrote that BOTH are equally wrong, with only an extremely small difference. Would the terms, horrendous versus horrible help grasp my point? Or should I refer to Scylla and Charybdis? </p>
<p>You came blazing with a statement about TA being only doctoral students. So, let me spell it out … for TA I make no difference between a Master’s candidate and a senior. It is the same poison! None of them is qualified to offer ANY part of a college level education. Actually, a fresh of the boat or plane foreign TA is probably a LOT worse than an advanced undergraduate. </p>
<p>So, stop that ad nauseam repetition of “there are no UG TA at Michigan.” It does NOT matter; what matters is that you have GSI who are NOT doctoral students, AND plenty who seem to need remedial English classes and cultural adaptation. And, again, none of them would be allowed to sit in front of middle-schoolers or high-schoolers in our public education system.</p>
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<p>Here we go again! How many times do I have to repeat that it does not matter if the school is Columbia, Stanford, or Harvard. If they use non-doctoral graduate students in any part of the education system, it is a DISGRACE. It is, however, acceptable to use PhD students in their final years as this is PART of their education. And, if you refer to the thread I linked about the Brown student, you’ll see that I do not find the practice at Brown to be less appalling!</p>
<p>If I am being repetitious xiggi, it is because I think you are unfarily characterizing research universities. You make it seem like research universities shortchange undergrads by regularly having unqualified TAs teach classes. That almost never happens…not in a college of Arts and Science. It may happen in specialized programs such as Nursing, Education etc…, but not in LSA. And by unqualified, I mean non-doctoral. But in such programs as Nursing and Education, non-doctoral graduate students are certainly qualified to be TAs, so it does not negatively impact students.</p>
<p>First of all, let us be very clear on something. TAs only teach 1%-5% of Arts and Science classes at most major research universities. The rest of the times, they merely lead discussion groups where student participation exceeds that of the TA. </p>
<p>Secondly, virtually every single class they do teach are intro level Mathematics or Foreign Language classes. In the rare occasion when a TA is actually selected to teach a class, that TA will almost be an advanced Doctoral student.</p>
<p>Thirdly, most major research universities have very limited Arts and Science Master’s programs. Virtually all graduate programs in Arts and Science departments are Doctoral in nature. At most elite research universities, only a couple of departments offer Master’s degrees and those departments clearly forbid (or seriously limit) Master’s students from becoming TAs. </p>
<p>Finally, at Cornell and Michigan, I know for a fact that all TAs must pass an English proficiency test. These days, complaints of TAs not speaking English intelligibly are unheard. It may have happened in the 80s and early 90s, but most universities have taking corrective measures since then.</p>
<p>I think you paint an unecessarily gloomy picture of TAs xiggi.</p>
<p>My daughter was an undergrad TA for 4 semesters a Brown. The grad student population is fairly small there. She ran a lab section, kept office hours for those seeking extra help, and graded papers. This is in the CS dept, one of the departments that utilizes TA’s to a large extent. The system is highly organized and there is always a professor teaching the class with his/her own office hours available. And professors at Brown are always available, access is not difficult. The TA’s are well regarded and often mentors to the students, my daughter was influenced positively by them and so was inspired to apply (it is selective) and go through training. She considered it a hallmark of department efficiency as an undergrad student.</p>
<p>She is in PhD track at UW-Madison now and a condition of funding is for her to serve as a TA. She does the same functions: run a lab section, office hours, TA. I am sorry for the poor PhD’s will will have to TA many semesters instead of doing research with that time.</p>
<p>Not all schools and not all departments at all schools, but this particular program is what I would consider a model one. They have fantastic placement in industry and with grad school acceptances. At Brown, it’s pretty limited by department. One of the classes she TA’d as a senior was a very small specialized class that had never had a TA before she recruited for it due to her own enthusiasm for the subject, so in this case, the TA was a bonus resource. Mostly the TA’s are in the lower level courses. My daughter was extremely happy with the experience (as a student and as a TA) and the results.</p>
Oh, it’s not so bad. For those of us who are more excited by the prospects of teaching than research, being a TA is good practice. I think free tuition and a stipend is quite generous for grading papers!</p>
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This I sort of agree with, even though I benefit from TA experience. I’m in charge of grading 80 kids on material I haven’t seen since high school, since I wasn’t assigned to my area of expertise. It’s a bit unnerving, to be sure.</p>
<p>Here we go again! How many times do I have to repeat that it does not matter if the school is Columbia, Stanford, or Harvard. If they use non-doctoral graduate students in any part of the education system, it is a DISGRACE.</p>
<p>It is possible that you’re entirely correct. But no less possible that I actually underestimate the extent and the depth of the problem. It is also possible that my position entails throwing the baby out with the bathwater. However, that is a LOT smaller of a problem. Fwiw, I wonder why not much attention was given to this previous post.</p>
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<p>In few words, this post offers a perfect exhibit to what IS wrong with that system. Assuming that I am a student interested in taking BPOL 560 (Foreign Policy and the Management of International Relations) I would know that I would be taught by Philip Potter. To form my decision to sign up for this class, I would check the CV of Potter and perhaps ask around about his tendencies and background. On the other hand, I will know absolutely nothing about the person who will … grade MY papers, except that it probably is a person who just took the same class. In addition to the great concerns about qualifications, should I worry about the political views of this TA, or simply his or her country of origin? For instance, could this have an impact on the review or grading of a paper on "Mis-Underestimating Terrorism” or a discussion about opening the southern border of the United States? Again, evaluating a faculty member is easy because of papers and research. A TA? Dream on! </p>
<p>And it does not stop there. What happens if the student IS a lot more advanced in a particular subject because of prior classes and does not agree with the erroneous positions of the inadequate TA? Obviously, the result IS a no win situation for the student and one that, in my book SHOULD never exist. One might HAVE to put up with the teacher of hell, but the TA of hell? Pluzzzhe! </p>
<p>Alexandre, if you believe I am only “picking on” Michigan, rest assured that my negative opinion of TA has been reinforced by KNOWING how TAs can and DO RUIN entire classes at an institution that is considered greatly superior to Umich for both UG and graduate schools, and even when TAs are doctoral candidates. If you’d like to know names and classes, I’d be glad to PM you the details. However, in the meantime know that UG classes that feature a bona fide ALL STAR professor with a world reputation in the subject taught can be ruined by TAs who DO not only lead the sections but grade EVERY paper and decide on the PAPER assignments that might or might having NOTHING to do with the lectures. As an example, politics and sexual preferences can and DO influence the direction of classes. For instance, a class on Art and Drama that focus SOLELY on the work of the Merle Cunningham Dance Company and similar artists might not correspond much to the … syllabus! But a student can only find out after being assigned to this particular section. </p>
<p>Oh well, this is something for the generations of students to find out for themselves!</p>
<p>Rjghggjgjh, you might want to check the Fall schedule and scout for a couple of classes in logic. Perhaps you’ll get a TA who could explain the meaning of "post hoc, ergo propter hoc.</p>
<p>“Alexandre, if you believe I am only “picking on” Michigan, rest assured that my negative opinion of TA has been reinforced by KNOWING how TAs can and DO RUIN entire classes at an institution that is considered greatly superior to Umich for both UG and graduate schools, and even when TAs are doctoral candidates.”</p>
<p>Please tell us which institution is considered, “greatly superior to Umich” at the graduate level. That ridiculously broad superlative statement in itself just proves that you are indeed biased.</p>