<p>What are some reasons (other than cost, distance from home, etc) for people to choose a big, more research-oriented university over, say, small schools like colgate or grinnell?</p>
<p>Personal preferrence. Some people prefer a more anonymous atmosphere (or they're attracted to the D1 sports).</p>
<p>Breadth of course offerings and specific programs that might not even be available at a LAC. Caliber of other activities, such as theater or music, student publications, etc.</p>
<p>LAC = Outdated</p>
<p>HTH</p>
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LAC = Outdated
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<p>Umm..... what? Please explain what you mean.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, larger universities offer more variety. More social clubs, more diverse student body, more on-campus recruitment, more research opportunities, more specialized labs and libraries, more course breadth and depth, more school spirit, more major sporting and artistic on-campus events etc...</p>
<p>and more lectures with 300 students. But between everything Alexandre said and that an overwhelming majority of my university classes have been between 6 and 20 student, the tradeoff seems like a no brainer to me.</p>
<p>Oh and dont forget larger alumni network ;)</p>
<p>LACs have a few primary benefits that I like to cite (as a fan of LACs):
1. Smaller classes – you won't have huge classes, even intro classes, at an LAC. Your biggest intro class, say, intro psych, might be 50 kids as opposed to, perhaps, 300 at a research university (even a really good one).
2. No TAs – the only non-professor that will help you is an upperclassman who aced the class and might help out in setting up labs. Either that, or there might be a qualified lecturer on occasion.
3. Big fish in a small pond – it's easy to be a leader in a smaller group of students, which looks good and is, one would think, fun. Plus, you don't need to be the star to participate in lots of activities – you can be a football player in a D3 school without sacrifices to the degree that a D1 player might have to do (as far as I've heard).
4. Research availability – professors are doing research, but they've got no grad students or post-docs to give the work to! Guess who gets those research assistantships, co-authorships, and footnote mentions! That's right! Undergraduates!
5. More students, by percentage, go on to receive higher degrees!</p>
<p>Among other benefits...</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Once it's beyond 20 or so, it doesn't really matter if it's 50 or 5000. The class is either on a personal level or it's not. Although, in a textbook example of Porter's theory of comparative advantage, the greater challenges at universities are beginning to spawn some novel responses such as this Clicking</a> toward a better education - News Advantage: Big intro lectures are equally impersonal, but LACs have less of them. slight LAC</p></li>
<li><p>TAs are hit or miss. It's the nature of the beast. Advantage: LAC</p></li>
<li><p>I would disagree here as smaller schools mean fewer groups in which you can try and lead. At a university there are so many clubs, groups, chances to lead that it would be hard not to wind up leading something if you want to. I've held leadership positions in multiple clubs at my university. Advantage: university</p></li>
<li><p>Research universities have grad students to give work to, but they also have more research that needs doing. Moreover, it depends on your department. One of my departments doesn't have a grad program, so even within a university it is entirely dependent on undergraduates. Advantage: me, personally :D</p></li>
<li><p>Selection bias. Students who plan on getting a higher degree are more likely to go to an LAC. Students who plan on going to work are more likely to go to a university. Advantage: pareto-optimal, no absolute advantage.</p></li>
</ol>
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1. Smaller classes – you won't have huge classes, even intro classes, at an LAC. Your biggest intro class, say, intro psych, might be 50 kids as opposed to, perhaps, 300 at a research university (even a really good one).
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<p>Not necessarily true. Even at the best LAC's there are a very few large intro classes. At mine intro psych was ~150. At my school, these fall into two categories:</p>
<p>Classes that are prerequisites for popular departments (Intro Psych, Intro Econ). Generally these are broad surveys that don't suffer much from the lecture format, so the departments decide to focus their faculty resources into providing more upper level classes and electives, which is a good thing. At my school, intro Econ is even team taught, so you can go to any number of professors to get help. It's really the best of all possible worlds.</p>
<p>Either way, though, these huge classes are smaller and less common at LAC's than at Universities</p>
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1. Once it's beyond 20 or so, it doesn't really matter if it's 50 or 5000. The class is either on a personal level or it's not.
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<p>I disagree. I've had classes of 50 students at my LAC, but the professor still knew my name, incorporated class participation extensively, and was available outside class for any help I needed. You don't get that in a class of 500. On the other hand, there are some completely exceptional professors who can have a discussion based class with 100 people, but these people are not the norm (I only know of one), and the supply of them is certainly not anywhere close to the number of large classes at a university that might be smaller and discussion based at an LAC.</p>
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3. I would disagree here as smaller schools mean fewer groups in which you can try and lead. At a university there are so many clubs, groups, chances to lead that it would be hard not to wind up leading something if you want to. I've held leadership positions in multiple clubs at my university. Advantage: university
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<p>That may be true, but it is also much easier at an LAC to have a leadership position in the more popular clubs because you have fewer people to compete against. It's comparatively much easier to get an editorial at the newspaper at a small school than at a large university, especially if it has a journalism school. It's also really hard to be an athlete and simultaneously be involved in other activities.</p>
<p>You are right, though that there are comparatively more clubs you can join at a University. LAC's are simply not large enough to support something like a Weimar Cinema club on a sustained basis, although a dedicated student can certainly get one going. Generally, I've found that the typical student at an LAC is involved in more clubs and activities than the typical university student. As an example, one of the captains of my school's football team also sings in one of the premier A Capella groups, speaks Japaneses, and is an RC. People like him certainly are exceptional, but they are more common at LAC's than universities in my experience, and the dynamic they bring to the campus is fantastic.</p>
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5. Selection bias. Students who plan on getting a higher degree are more likely to go to an LAC. Students who plan on going to work are more likely to go to a university. Advantage: pareto-optimal, no absolute advantage.
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While I'm not sure if that holds true for people who are in the Arts and Sciences, it is very much true that universities have things like accounting and nursing programs, and those students are less likely to pursue a graduate degree. Also, Pareto optimality ftw.</p>
<p>There are also those hybrid schools like the University of Chicago which offer the advantages of large research universities such as many undergraduate research opportunities with the feel, size and attention ,i.e. student faculty ratio of a small LAC in the undergraduate division. I think that it is the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>In my experience, popular intro classes had 150-400 students - with discussion sections limited to no more than 30 students.</p>
<p>The upper division lectures, of course, get smaller with a max of ~50 students - and even some of these classes had smaller discussion sections.</p>
<p>With regard to professor access, I had quite a few professors begging students to show up for office hours. </p>
<p>In a large university, you can be the anonymous brainy student who shows up only on test days and somehow manages to set the curve, or you can be the active participant. It's up to the student to make the experience his/her own.</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>The brainy student who only comes to class on test days sounds like my chemistry teacher who just got out of college. He went to a very large state school and never went to class. He said he just went on test days to take the test. I really couldn't fathom that. I would love to be involved in discussion! He graduated with a degree in economics, too. Seems strange he wouldn't want to be involved in economics discussion. (Yes, with an economics degree he is teaching chemistry, physics, and biology. He knows his stuff though!)</p>
<p>I think one main reason is that some people just like a big environment. They like having lectures more than intimate classroom settings, they like big classes, lots of people, big cities, etc.
Also, sometimes universities are less expensive (this of course is not universally true and there's certainly ways to go to LACs and pay less or go to universities and pay more, but in terms of big state schools, it's often cheaper, especially in-state). Of course, there are small state schools, but sometimes those are less well known or prestigious.
Which brings us to another reason: more people in general known university names than LACs. Some people partly pick colleges based on name recognition. Bigger schools often have more name recognition. Many more people have heard of UCLA or Harvard over even very prestigious LACs like Amhearst or Wesleyan.
Also, just a side note: TAs may be hit or miss, but professors can be too. Professors are often more hits than misses, but there's always those professors that do great research but can't teach AT ALL--and in those cases it'd be nice to have a TA or two.</p>
<p>Shock of the day 1:</p>
<p>Some LACs have TAs. Their alias? Mentors.</p>
<p>My LAC has them, and has proven very helpful. The groups that show up for these 'mentor' sessions hardly exceed 15 people. So, we have our TAs as well. With smaller class sizes and an overall more intimate environment to boot (Don't get defensive on me, I'm not saying that's a better situation). But I very much prefer that. And so do many others. </p>
<p>Professors at basic levels of courses though, can be indeed hit or miss. Which is why you do your research (going through the course reviews, upperclassmen etc) to make sure you don't land on an academic/GPA landmine. And it's easy to ask around - the small community is relatively close knit and access to upperclassmen is welcome.</p>
<p>Alumni network - admittedly, by sheer numbers alone, LACs can't match up with big Us in alumni. Which is why the good LACs have something which I call "selective prestige" - known by the companies and academics and organizations that matter. A good LAC, like Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore (and dare I say it? =p) Pomona will be known by companies, consulting groups, grad schools, firms and the like. That's who you want to know your school. Sure, it's nice to have the man on the street worship you for going to Princeton. If you really get high on that stuff - go for it. LACs are not your thing. The mediocre LACs are another issue altogether in this case.</p>
<p>In a general sense of the word, LACs are more focused on education in the traditional/ or less traditional sense of the word, depending on how you look at it. Professors are there as much for you as they are there for their research. Profs also take sabbaticals to pursue their own research, so it's not as though you have a dinosaur teaching you nanotechnology, as many narrow minded idiots squeal off all the time. Generally smaller class sizes, very few big lectures, a more intimate learning environment, get to know your classmates better, wider availability of research opportunities relative to class size.</p>
<p>My oft repeated advice is always the same. After taking all the differences in LAC versus a Uni into account, another thing you must consider is this - Is it a good school? Or a bad school? That's what's important. The really good LACs give you all you need to succeed and more. Same goes for the really good big Us.</p>
<p>Very well articulated D.T. I agree totally. In this forum, there is way too much "black and white" talk going on. Too much LAC vs University or Private vs Public. It should not be so. It is all about fit and actual quality. Some private universities are amazing, others are lousy. Some Public universities are awesome, others are terrible. Some LACs are unbeatable, others are pathetic. Thekey is to decide which type of university suits one best and then, to apply to the good universities or colleges that fit that "type".</p>
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Once it's beyond 20 or so, it doesn't really matter if it's 50 or 5000. The class is either on a personal level or it's not.
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</p>
<p>Not true at all! One of my classes is 80 students yet the prof knows everyone's name and holds discussions every single day. In fact, class participation is worth 10% of our final grade. Another one of my classes is smaller, 50 students, and yet again the prof knows our names and holds discussions during lecture. Both of these large classes feel just as interactive as my 16 person seminar. Bottom line, it depends on the prof.</p>
<p>As for the OOP question...both have their advantages and disadvantages. It depends on your preference. At a small school, everyone will know each other and each other's business whereas at a large school there are people you may never meet. Maybe you're the type of person who likes meeting new and different people every day. Maybe you like large lecture classes and having major research institutions nearby. Or maybe you want all the focus to be on you. It's up to you.</p>
<p>wow thanks for all the input. So i guess the bottom line is that people should probably take in the whole idea that lac is more personal but offers a narrower range of experiences and opportunities with a grain of salt. It really largely depends on the person.</p>
<p>Hopefully this will help those seniors who are picking schools (or will be very soon) make a wise decision. VISIT!! And no, taking a very packaged 2 hour tour is not enough. if you can, please stay over with someone and sit in on classes, and eat there, etc.</p>
<p>And Good luck to you seniors in the upcoming month or so.</p>
<p>If edu is important and you want to go to D1 school, apply for honors program/scholars hall. (These classes have under 25 students/class) There are plenty of big schools with huge reps, its more about the teacher than anything else. Go on a visit and find out which ones are good/liked and make an effort with yoiur counsler to get in</p>
<p>I believe that, if given the choice, most folks would prefer to have smaller classes than not. From time to time, a size disadvantage can be overcome with a skilled professor, but a larger class size will inhibit, if not make impossible, exchanges among students. If you believe that interaction with a high quality set of student peers is valuable, then you will probably prefer the smaller class sizes.</p>
<p>For the record, here are the colleges in the USNWR Top 30 National Universities and I have compared them to the USNWR Top 20 LACs. The differences are not as stark as some might think and there are many top private universities that are able to combine both great research reputations and smaller class sizes. </p>
<p>% of classes under 20 students , % of classes over 50 students , College</p>
<p>76% , 8% , Yale
75% , 8% , Caltech
74% , 8% , U Penn
74% , 8% , Northwestern
73% , 10% , Stanford
73% , 6% , Duke
73% , 9% , Wash U
72% , 10% , Princeton
72% , 4% , U Chicago
72% , 5% , Tufts
71% , 9% , Columbia
69% , 13% , Harvard
68% , 11% , Brown
67% , 6% , Vanderbilt
66% , 11% , Johns Hopkins
66% , 6% , Emory
66% , 9% , Carnegie Mellon
64% , 8% , Dartmouth
62% , 9% , Rice
62% , 12% , USC
61% , 14% , MIT
61% , 14% , UC Berkeley
60% , 16% , Cornell
58% , 7% , Georgetown
57% , 2% , Wake Forest
55% , 11% , Notre Dame
54% , 20% , UCLA
49% , 15% , U Virginia
47% , 11% , U North Carolina
45% , 17% , U Michigan</p>
<p>% of classes under 20 students , % of classes over 50 students , College</p>
<p>79% , 0% , Claremont McK
77% , 0% , Hamilton
76% , 2% , Swarthmore
75% , 3% , Williams
75% , 2% , Haverford
73% , 1% , Pomona
72% , 0% , Davidson
71% , 3% , Oberlin
70% , 4% , Middlebury
70% , 5% , Smith
69% , 1% , Vassar
68% , 4% , Amherst
68% , 1% , W&L
66% , 0% , Grinnell
64% , 1% , Wellesley
64% , 1% , Carleton
64% , 3% , Bowdoin
64% , 5% , Wesleyan
63% , 2% , Colgate
62% , 5% , Harvey Mudd
53% , 0% , US Naval Acad</p>