Big universities: why do so many people dislike them

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I, for one, have always been attracted to smaller schools. Through more recent talks with my dad and stuff, however, I realize that a lot of the things I believe about big schools were very based on the kind of college talk that seems to be popular nowadays. </p>

<p>So tell me, honestly, what's bad about big universities? Are intro courses of 800 REALLY that bad? Seriously, is it impossible to learn? Take for example, Amherst vs. Berkeley. Berkeley has Nobel laureates; is there an inherent advantage in studying with them when compared to professors at a small place without a graduate school? Do professors really care that little about undergraduates? How about upper-level courses? Please defend your arguments logically. Oh, and I would like to hear about just academics....social scene and all that is a totally separate beast. </p>

<p>Thanks</p>

2

<p>The issue is that the nobel laureates aren't sitting around shooting the breeze with undergrads. The vast majority don't teach undergrads at all. At Cal, you will be mostly taught by grad student TAs. Amherst doesn't have TAs. There are very small classes all taught by the actual professor. It's a hugely different experience. Classes with 10 rather than 400.</p>

3

<p>How about after freshman and sophomore year?</p>

4

<p>I personally like big schools. I didn't apply to a single LAC. Some people like having their hand held or knowing every single person at their school.</p>

5

<p>It's no different than any other kind of school. Sure, you can get a good education at a public high school with 500 students. But, in general, a small private school with smaller classes is going to be better.</p>

<p>If you are talking pure academics, a good gauge would be the production of future PhDs and Doctorate degrees per 1000 undergrads. Here are the top 25 colleges and universities by that measure from 1991-2000. The biggest schools in the top 25 are Harvard and Stanford, which only approach the size of the smallest state universities. Overally, the small liberal arts colleges seem to stack up pretty well.</p>

<p>I've marked the small undergrad-only schools with an asterisk:</p>

<p>01 California Institute of Technology
02 Harvey Mudd College*
03 Swarthmore College*
04 Reed College*
05 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
06 Carleton College*
07 Bryn Mawr College*
08 University of Chicago*
08 Oberlin College*
10 Yale University
11 Princeton University
11 Grinnell College*
13 Haverford College*
14 Curtis Institute of Music
15 St. John's College*
16 Pomona College*
17 Kalamazoo College*
18 Rice University
19 Peabody Institute of Johns Hopkins
21 Juilliard School
22 Amherst College*
23 Williams College*
24 New England Conservatory of Music
25 Stanford University
26 Harvard University</p>

6

<p>I think that the way most large universities work are that actual professors, lecturers, or assisstant professors will teach the large lecture sections and then grad student TAs will teach smaller discussion/lab sections. </p>

<p>This system works pretty well. Obviously, you don't get the personal interaction and attention you would get if you went to a smaller school. This in no way means that it's impossible to get help if you are struggling with a class though. All of the professors and TAs have office hours and are usually willing to meet with students if they are having trouble. It's more a matter of the student taking the initiative to go see a TA or professor. </p>

<p>In general, small schools facilitate the process of students getting to know their professors, whereas at large universities, students need to take the intiative to get to know their professors. You usually can't make a broad, sweeping statement that large university professors don't care about undergraduates. There are some professors who aren't as approachable, while there are some professors who are very sympathetic and willing to meet with students. It depends on the individual professor. </p>

<p>Having huge classes and less personal attention places more responsibility on the student, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.</p>

7

<p>I go to the epitome of the big state school, Berkeley, and here's my defense:</p>

<p>I think parents here romanticize the idea of the college experience. When they think about college they think about the education, the <em>learning</em> above everything else. Face-to-face professors doing their Socrates impressions. On paper, that's all that college is about, right? So what could be better than a LAC? Not much.</p>

<p>But most teenagers don't seem to agree. LACs aren't that popular. There's quite a few reasons why. </p>

<ol>
<li>It's as hard to get into Williams as Harvard, but a Williams diploma isn't going to impress any stranger you meet. Go to a LAC, even the best and most of the world won't know if you went to a good school or a community college.</li>
</ol>

<p>There are advantages to name degrees beyond the impress strangers factor. Also, a <em>name</em> degree isn't necessarily a big name like Harvard. SDSU is a <em>name</em> degree to a lot of people in socal, because they have <em>heard of it</em>. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Most LACs are located in isolated environments. Yawn. </p></li>
<li><p>The tiny student body limits opportunities and'll make it harder to find a niche. Who wants to go to a college smaller than their high school?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Big universities usually provide students with less attention, but more opportunities. There are 500-something different student groups at Berkeley. That's a larger number than Amherst's total freshman class size. There are more departments, more majors, more famous guest speakers and events than any LAC. </p>

<p>So, the main fault of big Universities? TAs and big classes. No doubt, intro classes at big Universities are large and impersonal. But they're intro courses. Calculus taught at Amherst, sans TAs, is the same calculus taught at Berkeley. If most important part of the college experience is personal attention in simple intro classes, then LACs are clearly the best schools in the country.</p>

<p>Overall, college is a transition to the real world: a big class where nobody knows your name.</p>

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<p>I don't even find the TAs or large classes that bad. I, in fact, love them. I love how there are as many people in one class as in my graduating high school class haha. I get mad and frustrated with the big school bashing. Don't say that you only get researchers and profs that don't care. It was partially true last year when 3 profs had to take Zumdahl's (don't tell me you haven't heard of him if you've taken any chemistry) place after he retired because they weren't sure which one would work. One of them: Horrible, best researcher on campus, worst prof in the world. Another: About average, still our prof this semester, I don't mind. The third: a little less respected because of his doctorate in chem-edu, BEST teacher ever!! Guess who kept the job? The last one because it really is teaching first even at a big school. But still, it can be a toss-up but you'll get that almost anywhere.</p>

<p>I love the massive size of everything. When asked of what school size I would apply to, the word small didn't even enter my mind. I didn't even think about it. I wanted to go big, as big as possible. (Along with Berkelely, I think U of I also embodies a BIG SCHOOL.)</p>

<p>Another thing I love, the enormous amounts of people. I love all of the different types of people I know. I love walking into a lecture hall and saying hi to 10 different people on the way up the stairs and 10 different ones back down and not even hitting a significant fraction of the people there. Try as I might I still don't know every chemE let alone everyone in my chem class (which halved in size at the semester btw). My friends are all astounded at the number of people I know (especially living in a quiet dorm like I do) but I just find it fun meeting the myriad new people that there is to become friends with. And another thing. Is there people you don't like? They're easy to avoid. That's pretty damn awesome too.</p>

<p>In conclusion, so you can't do things yourself or want specialized attention? Are you scared of just looking around and seeing everyone and feeling lost? Are you afraid of being a small fish in a big ocean? Did you like Disneyworld (I am actually serious b/c sometimes I get the same feeling of "wow am I at the same place as all of these people for a similar reason" feeling that I get at themeparks)? If these are your fears then you probably aren't completely ready for a big school.</p>

<p>Want to work for what you need to do without having your hand held or work for the attention of a prof. Do you think that because you go to a big school you won't be noticed. Profs notice students that come to them, ones that stand out. It is possible to be a shark in the ocean you know. Profs seem to know me before I even get a first chance to speak to them. It is uncanny. So, all in all, I wanted a big school and I love every minute of my final decision.</p>

<p>My only peeve about a big school is the beaurcratic red tape that comes with every action (adding minor? try signing this paper at this office and bring it back, then this office has to enter it on the system . . . stuff like that.)</p>

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<p>"SDSU is a <em>name</em> degree to a lot of people in socal, because they have <em>heard of it</em>. "</p>

<p>didn't even know that California people knew about South Dakota State. . .</p>

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<p>Where does the misconception that you will be taught by TAs come from? I go to a big university (UCLA), and almost every single lower division class is taught by a professor. And even those that are taught by graduate students are generally great classes. The problem with professors is that not all of them are actually good teachers. You don't have to go through any teachers training to teach at a university - all you need is a Ph.D. which does not make you a good teacher. My TA in my math class last year was a better teacher than the professor, and now he is teaching his own class. I would take that class in a heartbeat.
On another note, I don't mind big classes - in fact, I almost prefer them. But I guess some people might not like that atmosphere. It is definitely one that requires more self-motivation and initiative.</p>

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<p>The disadvantaged associated with large schools are sometimes true...but more often than not, they are blown out of proportion. To hear most people on this forum speak, you would think that at schools like Stanford or Harvard, all the classes have fewer than 20 students and Nobel Laureates by the dozens spend countless hours teaching, dining and partying with undergrads whereas at schools like Michigan or Cal, all the classes at taught by TAs and have more than 200 students. In reality, it is not quite so extreme. In fact, I would say with the exception of LACs and very few researching univeristies like Dartmouth, Brown, Rice and Princeton, most research universities, public or private, huge or small give students similar attention. At the end of the day, what you get out of your education depends primarily on you, not on how much attention the faculty pays to you. </p>

<p>So, if you feel a large state university is a better fit for, you, go for it. You will get as good an education at a top state university (like Cal, Michigan, UVA, UCLA) as you would at a top private university (like Chicago, Cornell, Duke or Penn).</p>

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<p>Huge classes aren't a bad thing. One of the classes where I learned the most was in a lecture of maybe 300 to 400 students. Big schools become a problem when you have grad students, in lieu of a professor, teaching the course, or if the school becomes restrained by budget problems which you often see in publics.</p>

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<p>Shizz, very few classes are actually taught by graduate students at flagship state universities. At Michigan, 97% of classes are taught by fulltime professors. The discussions are sometimes (25% of the times) led by graduate students, but lectures almost never are.</p>

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<p>I think that teaching in lecture for big universities is fine. But the problem with large schools sometimes is that lectures are not supplemented with enough office hours with grad students and professors. Sometimes when you don't understand something at large schools, there won't be a scheduled event to explain it to you, u often have to take the initiative.</p>

15

<p>"what's bad about big universities? "
Class sizes. focus of Profs on their research, not teaching undergrads.</p>

<p>"Are intro courses of 800 REALLY that bad?"
I didn't mind them at the time, but when I look back I don't think I received much value from them for my parents' money. Sort of like reading the textbook by yourself.</p>

<p>" Seriously, is it impossible to learn?"<br>
No. In all cases how much you learn is in part up to you, but a huge class provides minimal facilitation with the learning process. In a smaller class you might have to come to class prepared on an ongoing basis. You might have more papers & other assignments that the prof. grades. In a huge class, nobody knows if you ever come to class at all. Assignments may be kept to a minimum, lots of multiple choice exams. All grading is done by inexperienced TAs, not Profs.</p>

<p>"Berkeley has Nobel laureates; is there an inherent advantage in studying with them when compared to professors at a small place without a graduate school?"</p>

<p>I can't speak for Berkeley's Nobel laureates, but I had classes with two of them elsewhere, and I can categorically say that in those cases the answer categorically is: No.</p>

<p>" Do professors really care that little about undergraduates?"
The answer,in my personal experience, was: "Yes, they do care that little about undergraduates."</p>

<p>" How about upper-level courses? "
The situation gets better here at a big school, precisely because the class sizes get smaller. IMO it's possible to get the opposite, also undesirable situation at an LAC, where there are very few people in your major and you have classes that are actually too small to foster quality class discussion. There are more upper-level courses to choose from at a big school, and they will be given more often. At a small school many upper level courses are only offered every other year. However, assuming you've chosen schools wisely, in the one LAC I'm intimately familiar with the offerings seem to be more than sufficient.</p>

<p>This brings up another advantage of a larger school: if your interests change you are less likely to have to change schools.</p>

<p>I'll balance that with another disadvantage: I clearly remember when I applied to graduate schools and I had to get Professor recommendation letters. I had to ask for a letter from a guy who I took two classes with, got A's in both. I was really nervous about it, because: he had no idea who I was. I'd talked to him after class maybe two times, but he didn't know me from a whole in the wall; wouldn't even recognize my name.</p>

<p>"LACs aren't that popular."
"It's as hard to get into Williams as Harvard.."</p>

<p>Contradiction here in these two statements?</p>

<p>"The tiny student body limits opportunities and'll make it harder to find a niche."
Not necessarily. You choose your environment, so there may be a higher % of like-minded people at the small school in the first place. Plus the smaller environment forces you to interact with them more. There are many people living in NYC who say it's hard to meet anybody, because the large scale limits personal interaction. There may be more like-minded people in a larger school, but because they are all spread out and may not interact you might not get to know as many of them.</p>

<p>Advantage LAC: intimacy. Advantage big school, to some: possibility of privacy & anonymity .</p>

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<p>Jeffl, do you think MIT or Stanford would offer you more personalized attention than Cal or Michigan? I mean, professors at any top research university will be stretched to the limit, primarily due to their publishing, their research and their attention to graduate students. In fact, Stanford and MIT have larger graduate programs of Engineering than Cal or Michigan...and their faculties are not larger. If undergrads at top private research universities get more attention, that tells me that their professors are not as much into research as their larger, state school counterparts. And we both know that isn't the case...or they would not be ranked so highly at the graduate level. The fact is, state schools get a bad rep because they are state schools and no other reason. Obviously, if you compare Harvey Mudd or RHIT to the schools mentioned above, you would get a very different picture. But at research universities, students who do not take the initiative will not get the attention they seek. Perhaps at large state schools like Cal and Michigan, the students have to take slightly more initiative, but initiative is required either way.</p>

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<p>Quote:</p>

<p>"If you are talking pure academics, a good gauge would be the production of future PhDs and Doctorate degrees per 1000 undergrads."</p>

<p>Personally, I do not think most people even consider that statistic when making college decisions. I'm not even sure what" pure" academics means. I doubt that many students even consider such a statistic when making a college choice. I think the production of "productive members of society" would be a better guage of the quality of a school, albeit a bit more of a subjective distinction. (Looking at statistics on those entering professional schools, or gaining employment upon graduation would probably be more useful information to most prospective candidates.)</p>

<p>I would also suggest that if anyone did look at so called pure academic statistics, they would look at current data, not data that was 5-14 years. old.</p>

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<p>The guy above hit it right on the head: people romanticize college ad nauseum on this board.</p>

<p>People (especially parents) have begun to think that college is going to be (or should be) all coffee shops and quirky academic professors who want to be their (or their kid's) best friend. Its just not the case anywhere. You may have a few more "professor Socrates" type people in a LAC, but that's not really what most kids are truely looking for. I think the romantic interpretation puts way too much value on this.</p>

<p>Also, I think sometimes the big schools get an unfairly bad rap. This semester all my classes are 300-500 level stuff. Two of them are taught by PhD's and have less than 25 students in them. One is just a lecture, and one is the dreaded "lecture/discussion" format that has a TA answering questions during the discussion.</p>

<p>From my experience, office hours often go unused and you will not be cramped for time with either a professor or a TA. The guy who said that you can't even get into them is dead wrong - at least in the Umich case. I think the very fact that so few kids actually go when they aren't having trouble shows a lot about what kids actually think about the "best friend professor Socrates" ideal of college that is so prevelant around here. If it was important to them you would think you would see more kids taking advantage of office hours.</p>

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<p>My son is currently a junior and has begun his college search. One of the first things he has been checking is course selection. Eons ago when I was looking for a college, it never occurred to me that there would be a significant difference. But there is. Large universities tend to have far more courses within a specific major than do smaller schools. So, at large universities students can shape their course of study to match specific interests. At smaller colleges, students often have a very restricted choice of courses within a major. Also, large universities often offer either all or most of the courses every semester/quarter. Smaller schools have far fewer classes and often offer the first course in a sequence only fall semester and the next course in the sequence only spring semester. That leaves you up a creek if you get out of sequence. </p>

<p>Another big advantage that large universities offer is far more professors. Sixty professors in your major can give you much a much broader experience than six can, although if there are only six professors in your major, you will probably get to know each much better than if there are sixty. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that large universities and small colleges offer different experiences, which suit different types of students.</p>

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<p>It is all a matter of perspective:</p>

<p>Disadvantages of a large university: (a) large classes, particularly first two years, where you are mostly anonymous to your professors; (b) TA's rather than profs (and those "nobel laureates") teach a lot of courses; (c) little personalized touch, even your advisor is likely to forget who you are; (d) far too many distractions (like parties everywhere).</p>

<p>Advantages of a large university: (a) large classes, particularly first two years, where you are mostly anonymous to your professors (it is often far more comfortable and better to be anonymous); (b) TA's rather than profs (and those "nobel laureates") teach a lot of courses (many of those TA's are very good teachers and many of those profs and nobel laureates are incompetent as teachers); (c) little personalized touch, even your advisor is likely to forget who you are (most don't need a very personalized touch and need an advisor only to sign off on the course program the student has already figured out on his own); (d) far too many distractions (like parties everywhere) (need I say more; you just have to pace yourself).</p>

<p>Advantages of a small LAC: (a) small community and most get to know each other; (b) profs teach most, if not all courses; (c) classes are small, profs know you by first name and likely, particularly in your major, you may end having the same prof for three or more courses.</p>

<p>Disadvantages of a small LAC: (a) small community and most get to know each other (there will be many people that you will wish you'd never gotten to know and the rumor mill can result in someone being ostracized by everyone); (b) profs teach most, if not all courses (and many of those profs will put you to sleep; also there will inevitably be one required course that you must take during college that is taught only by the worst professor on campus); (c) classes are small, profs know you by first name and likely, particularly in your major, you may end up having the same prof for three or more courses (sounds nice until you consider what happens if the prof doesn't care for you much).</p>