Investment banking has worse hours. Top tier consulting is terrible too. But biglaw is up there. Most people I know who aren’t lawyers work 9 to 5 and make mid to upper five figures. They have lives.
Considering the hours and educational investment you have to put in to work biglaw, I am not sure it financially makes sense anymore. The salaries haven’t seemed to scale with the cost of education or living, while the average hours worked have gone up.
The jobs I am considering pay significantly less. Right now my s/o and I take home in the upper 200s a year (although we live in an expensive place and I have loans). If I take a lower paying job and we can only take home 100k, is that enough in a high COL place? My in laws (who are well-off) have kindly offered to help out with costs if we need it, but would it be weird to be as old as we are getting parents’ help? I don’t think we can save much on 100k in a high COL place.
Do you have to live in such an expensive place? That is the deal generally… high earners usually work their tails off, at least that is what I have seen in life. I wouldn’t take help from her parents, I would downsize/scale down to fit your new income(s).
I’d caution against going small law firm route. I know some ex biglaw lit people who’ve gone that direction, much to their misfortune. They get paid much less, work slightly better hours, work on more mind-numbing tasks, with no upward mobility.
Getting in-house coming from litigation is awful tough. Getting in-house from biglaw corporate is no easy feat either, but certainly more feasible than lit.
If you are looking for super-chill hours with okay pay, look into compliance departments at corporations in your city. The vast majority of these gigs are 9-5, with decent pay and benefits. With Biglaw credentials, you should be able to swing one of these with some effort.
Our rent is only around $2k a month, which is a steal where we live. It’s just that I also have loans, and 100k is shit money here. (It would be good money in 90% of the US.) I also want us to save at least 1k a month, since I don’t understand the point of living paycheck to paycheck. I would just move locations and/or change careers to where I could save money. Right now moving locations is not an option. The in-laws earn more than we do right now on investments alone, and have no debts/no mortgage, so it would not be tough for them to help us out with a couple thousand a month. I am just wondering if we should accept help.
I am not thinking of doing a small firm. I have thought about compliance, but the work seems as boring as most biglaw firm work.
I am trying to be a lot pickier going forward about what jobs to take, because most people spend most of their waking moments at work, and I don’t want to be on my death bed wishing I had done something else with my life. And right now the money alone isn’t offsetting the hours and type of work that I am doing. I just wish I had realized this years ago, but then maybe without going through Biglaw I wouldn’t have realized what is actually important in life. Life is just too short for this bullshit.
Plus, I am open to change (we don’t have kids and no mortgage so I am not tied down). I have always liked and done well in school, so if it gets to that point where I am thinking about a career change because I can’t find something I enjoy in this profession, I will just do something else with my life.
BigLawLawyer, why not consider a smaller firm? People in them are often people who had it with Biglaw and don’t tolerate the craziness that comes with Biglaw careers–meaning that the issues that you’re dealing with in Biglaw may not be there in a smaller firm. (I was in Biglaw for years and am now in a smaller firm, and my job now is the first legal job that I’ve had that I’m not clamoring to escape from; it’s fine, and I’ve been in my current job for years.)
One downside to a smaller firm is that there can be more pressure to develop business. Gone are those huge accounts that keep lots of lawyers busy. If marketing is not your thing, this could be stressful for you. On the other hand, if you are a “people person” and enjoy getting out there and marketing, this could be exactly the right thing for you. You end up handling smaller matters, but much more personal matters, which can be fulfilling.
I don’t want to have to consistently pull late nights and I don’t expect small firms to be that much better. I don’t think I can physically handle having to pull 18 hour days at least twice a week anymore, which is where I am now. I work regularly between 12 to 18 hours a day on average. No amount of money is worth this shit and we don’t get paid enough (in my opinion) for this shit. Unlike people who stay and thrive in Biglaw and want to become partner, I don’t live to work. I work to live. I also think it’s hit or miss with small firms - it’s hard to tell which firms are good to work for and which aren’t.
HappyAlumnus - how many legal jobs have you had so far? If you have had a lot and it’s the “first” legal job that you have been okay with it, that does not make me optimistic about staying in the profession.
Also, side commentary, just something I’ve been thinking about. It’s funny to me how so many people go into Biglaw to get rich. Most lawyers aren’t paid enough to have their money making money. Nobody (except partners) come out of Biglaw or law for that matter “rich.” I just don’t understand the mentality - killing yourself to get mediocre pay for life? How is that worth it? Why not just work a 9 to 5 job and make decent money at that point? Unless you are going to do a high risk, high pay off venture (like business, which is the only way to have your money making money), why kill yourself working (simply just to make mediocre money)?
BigLaw Lawyer, I’ve had 4 law firm/in-house jobs before my current one. 2 were absolute h*ll, in large law firms in NYC that were known as being rough places, 1 was in a very nice small branch office of a large law firm that was based outside of NYC, and one was in-house. None were satisfactory. I liked the small branch office but people and ambiance but hated the practice area.
It always takes some jumping around to find the perfect fit.
Re: salaries, anyone who is in Biglaw for an extended period, even only as an associate, can be a millionaire by the end of that period. That may not be “rich”, but it’s comfortable.
Ok, so firms are probably a no go. Staying in a big city probably makes it worse, since I think they tend to have more demanding clients.
A person with 1 million by 40 in NYC can’t even afford to buy an apartment though. Doesn’t seem that comfortable to me. I guess if you worked til 40, then moved to the suburbs, you’d be okay, but by then your youth is gone and you’d have spent your entire youth working a terrible job.
In regard to the in-house positions for litigation, the work varies depending on how the company sees the role. In some companies, you would do a lot of the litigation legwork yourself: depositions, briefs, interrogatories, etc. In those roles, it can be almost as bad as BigLaw litigation. However, there is no pressure to rack up billable hours, so I think the workload is less. But there are other roles where you acting more as a quarterback, directing outside counsel, helping to strategize, acting as the liason to employee witnesses, etc. That’s not nearly as stressful.
OP, I’ve worked both in a large law firm (in litigation but in the Midwest), in small firms, and I’m in my second in-house role. I went from litigation to corporate work and it was GLORIOUS. No billable hours. A collegial atmosphere. It’s not necessarily all that exciting, but it’s not drudgery either. It really is something I’d recommend to any lawyer.
Biglaw Lawyer, yes you can certainly buy an apartment in NYC if you are 40 and have $1 million in assets. I did, before meeting that asset level; mortgage lenders care more about current income.
Are you sure that it’s not just your practice area? I was in a niche area of financial services for 10 years and it was awful- both in firms and in-house (except for the nice branch office I was in for a few years but the only good things about that were the people/ambiance)- since that field just attracts demanding “masters of the universe” jerks who will do whatever they need to make a buck, even wrecking your life. So if you change jobs but stay in the practice area, if the practice area is the problem, it won’t help.
Also, while you’ve said no to a smaller firm, if you go to a small firm and develop business there (which is certainly more feasible there than in a larger firm), then you’re your own boss. Your life in the big firm now may be rough because you’re at others’ beck and call. If you develop your own book of business in a small firm, then you report to nobody; you can come and go as you please, and you can set boundaries with clients.
Finally, as one of my non-lawyer friends says, “there’s no easy way”. Stress, 60+ hour weeks, etc. are just a fact of life for the highly-paid white collar jobs that we have. My relatives who are not highly paid (but who are in jobs that require advanced degrees) still have stress and 60+ hour weeks, too. The grass is not necessarily greener in other jobs. From my own awful experience in-house, I came back to a firm and figured that despite the downside, it’s a better option than others.
I am not in a niche practice area with particularly bad clients, so it’s probably just the nature of biglaw. A good portion of the attorneys at my firm who left the firm (from all practice areas) left legal practice entirely. It’;s not atypical for people to quit law entirely by year 5 and figure out what they want to do with their lives/spend years traveling.
I meant buy an apartment free and clear. (And also I don’t want to buy a condo since condo fees in big cities are insane on top of what you pay for the actual place.) I personally never want to be in debt again (after having student loans), so I am not looking to buy until I have cash to buy the entire house/apartment free and clear (which means I’ll probably never buy in a big city without financial help from someone else).
As for jobs and grass is greener. Teachers where I grew up were paid six figures after 15 years and worked maximum 7-8 hours a day and get 3 months off (plus I think talking and teaching for a living seems less stressful than pushing papers and worrying about minute details all day). My friends from college who continued in business or accounting also make six figures but have reasonable hours. I can’t think of a lot of jobs that require advanced degrees and 60+ hour weeks but do not pay well. What kind of jobs are you talking about? Just based on the people I knew growing up and my college classmates, you can make decent money ih a job that requires less than 60 hours week and no graduate degree (might have to become a CPA or CFA though). I know public accountants complain a lot, but Big4 hours are MUCH better than Biglaw hours. It’s not even comparable. Nurses make high five figures and low six figures for very normal hours. And the people I’m talking about for the most part live in a low COL area.
BigLaw Lawyer, you have the perspective of many large law firm associates; I had the same perspective when I was an associate in a large law firm. Then I had more experiences to compare large law firm experiences to…and firms ended up being the best option.
I own my Manhattan apartment free and clear, and I have for years (even before age 40).
For the jobs you mention: assuming that you’re 30-ish now, you want to take a big cut in pay and finally make over $100k/year only once you’re in your mid-40s, if you become a teacher or you want to be paid 5 figures as a nurse–with the income potential that you have with what must be a good JD and a great background? Accounting may pay 6 figures but it pays a lot less than law does, and it can have terrible hours particularly around tax time, as my Big4 work colleagues (from my in-house days) told me. Yes, in business, you can make a lot more money for shorter hours, but the stress per hour and travel can be a lot worse than law, and the hours can be very long, too, and getting a lucrative job in business can take a lot of transitioning and time.
My relatives who work 60+ hours/week for low pay are college professors (tenured, full professors–not adjuncts).
My roommate from last year of law school started off at a top-5 firm in NYC…then he had it and quit. Now he lives in a condo that his parents own and works for a small company in his hometown, and makes nothing. He’s more miserable than ever. Don’t make the mistake that he did and give away all of the future things that you can do with your background. You’ve gone through a trial by fire and you have lots of amazing options ahead of you. Don’t give them up and settle for a dinky job that’s below what you can do.
How about state or city government jobs? Yes, you still have the pay cut issue, but the hours will be much better and the work likely more interesting. I have seen people go back to private practice after time in the public sector, too.
I would do a government job (that’s one of my top choices).
HappyAlumnus - your experiences have all been in New York though, right? And 3 were biglaw firms? One was in house? I have heard some horror stories about in house.
I wouldn’t be working as a teacher or nurse in a big city. I’d move back to the suburbs, where a high five figure salary is good pay and you can buy a decent house for 250k. I might actually be able to save more there than in a big city.
Another thing is, combined, s/o’s parents and my parents have seven houses (not all of them being lived in) in different states. We could probably live in one of them for free. I feel stupid paying high rent to live in a place where my job is terrible, when we have other places we can live. If we moved, however, there are fewer legal opportunities and I might have to look at other professions. Law is just not that portable of a degree compared to a lot of other professions, like accounting or nursing. Plus, I’d have more financial freedom to do so if I am not worrying about paying rent. And, honestly, I’d probably save more with a five figure job not paying rent in the suburbs than working biglaw in a big city.
Also, if I find a legal job I like, I will stick with it. But potential “higher income” is not good enough of a reason for me to stay in a profession I (potentially) dislike. I know that when I am on my deathbed, that would be a huge regret for me, especially when my s/o and I have other options and are not tied down with a mortgage or kids.
I think it’s worth it for me to look at at least two other legal jobs and see if I like them. But if other legal jobs are as soul-sucking as Biglaw, then I see no reason to stick around until death just to make a potentially higher income (and in a place that I probably don’t want to live forever).
At a recent wedding, I met a few Ivy educated ex-lawyers. Some were doing startups, one just came back after working in Asia and wasn’t sure about his next job. They were colleagues, friends of the bride who worked at BigLaw for 8 years and finally got an in house job.