<p>My feeling about the tests are that it costs money to take it. My daughters inner city high school offers a lot of AP classes( 13 -yr long classes), it doesn't cost to take the classes, but it might be too much for many kids to take all the tests.
If you aren't going to use the AP tests to test out of classes ( which many top schools discourage anyway), and you don't even want to say enter as a soph or freshman, why take the test?</p>
<p>And just a note for those of you discussing numbers of AP classes. So that you might appreciate what you have, our school has THREE AP classes -- AP Calc, AP English and AP Bio. My son will probably take two out of the three his Jr. year. He is talking about skiipping AP Biology and taking Physics because it's supposed to be a harder course. Plus it'll help him more in college (hopefully Engineering/Computer Science).</p>
<p>Just a thought,</p>
<p>Peg</p>
<p>EK:</p>
<p>Why take the test? To validate the grade a student got in AP. There is something wrong about kids who get weighted grades just because they are in AP classes, get As and don't take the test, or, if they take the test, get a score of 1 or 2 (check out Texastaximom's posts on this issue). </p>
<p>Peggy:</p>
<p>Students interested in science and engineering often take AP-Physics C at the same time as AP-Calculus. If the AP-Physics class is not available, can your child take it at the local college? The most popular textbook is Halliday & Resnick.</p>
<p>So taking SAT and SAT lls wouldn't "validate" the score?
I don't know if the school weights, this is our first experience with a school that offers AP, they don't weight my daughters honors classes, anyway.
At $82 a test, that is a really expensive way to validate for most kids.
My daughter limited the number of colleges she applied to because of cost, and college applications are about half of what AP tests are.
But you have a good point, not taking the IB tests may be why my nieces didn't get into more colleges that she wanted, and why the one that did get admitted to her first choice, didn't get a better aid package.</p>
<p>At our "average" high school, students are required to take the AP test for every AP course they are in. I think the reason is to make sure they take the courses seriously. However, as emeraldkty says, it can get very expensive, which is especially annoying when the student is not trying to get college credit for the class. My son had to take 5 AP tests when he was a senior and it added up to a lot of money. He had above the maximum units allowed for AP credit at his college and some of the tests were in subjects which he did not plan to take in college so placing out of intro courses was not a consideration. Also, since he was already admitted to college, his scores did not matter as far as looking good on his application. However, he had no choice but to pay the fees (over $350) and take the tests.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4- you are right. Students whose families cannot afford or who are otherwise not prepared to spend $82 per test for three or four tests get knocked out of some of the game. Many of the students I teach come from families that don't have a clue about college. To cough up $250 to take three tests at the end of the year would be absolutely painful and incomprehensible for them. Many of my student's parents speak Hmong a language that really has no written history before 1950, so few of them actually read a standardized Hmong. </p>
<p>These are also the families that can not afford an SAT tutor or program. They also come from the middle schools that do not offer the same level classes as the more suburban schools in our district do, so they usually start high school one math year behind the more affluent students in our public high school.</p>
<p>Our public highschools, which do not have an employee whose sole duty is college advisor are more schismatic than a single score would imply. No matter what the public relations stories the administration puts out. The honors/AP students separate out early in their high school careers from the other students.</p>
<p>If you wanted to evaluate the program one child went through, the criteria, amounts of AP classes and any other measure of academic evaluation you concieved it could be quite different from that of another child in a different program within the same high school. The more diverse the school population the greater the schizim.</p>
<p>The original issue of block scheduling: I prefer my math students get an opportunity to practice their lessons every night. Doubling the class length would not double the learning of math given our scripted standard based program.</p>
<p>I forgot to say that there is some kind of financial aid from our school for students if paying the AP fee is a hardship but I don't know how it works, exactly. The reason I know is that my son mistakenly believed that students taking more than 3 tests would get some aid, but I was told it was only for those with financial need.</p>
<p>I think for AP tests it may be that you have to be on free/reduced lunch to get aid. THis will limit it to a very few people as the income requirements are so low to be on free reduced lunch, that I bet most kids aren't taking AP classes, but are taking classes with less homework so that they can work after school to contribute to the family income.
Some schools/districts may also chose to underwrite AP test expenses, it may be that my daughters school does this. Although it is in the inner city, they have a high percentage of high acheiving students whose parents have taken them out of private prep schools in order to attend a still challenging but more diverse school.
For things like the high graduation expenses, ( chaperoned party, gown, etc) the school auction proceeeds go to reducing the costs for all students, so that as many as possible can attend. They are the only school in Seattle as far as I know that does this, expenses can run very high at some other schools.</p>
<p>now a thought on math and block.My older daughter had math 4th period, so everyday she had math for an hour, other classes were block classes, although I think she would have enjoyed a break from math.
Her sister, who also has difficulty with math, has been attending tutoring at Kumon for almost a year, while she began doing a little everyday, she really hated having math everyday and insisted that she did better by doing it once or twice a week all at the same time. So since it seemed to take a lot of the stress off of her, I agreed with the centers blessing. It seems to have made a difference for her. Her brain seems to transfer more to long term memory, if she had an opportunity to do it for a longer period. When she was only spending 15 or 30 minutes she did it, but it just didn't sink in.
She does have block class of math, and I am not sure what they do with the extra hour, it is an accelerated math class however, intended to bring students who are below grade level up to the level of the other students by end of the semester, so it is possible that they use the time to reinforce weak areas</p>
<p>emeraldkity4</p>
<p>you raise an extremely valid point, in the $80-$100 can be a hardship on many families, particularly if a kid is taking 3-4 AP's in the same year and if that family has multiple kids in AP courses. There are some districts who pay the test fee for all students.</p>
<p>But, in aswer to your query: IMO, APs can provide more choices at the college level. Even if a student does not have the intention of entering college as an advanced student, AP tests can serve to fulfill distribution or general ed requirements, thus, allowing a student to take other classes in his/her major or other classes within a department. For example, one of our top HS kids from a couple of years ago went to UC to major in English. But, as a senior, he took Calc bcos it fulfilled a UC distribution requirement, freeing up time for another English or Lit class on his college schedule. Similarly, by passing out of AP US Hist, he was able to take a different history class at UC (I think it was ancient Greek history). Finally, since many more colleges are requiring competency in a foreign language, an AP score may fulfill that requirement as well, allowing students to try a foreign language not typically offered in HS (e.g., Russian or Arabic), as opposed to taking the equivalent of Spanish or French 5.</p>
<p>Possibly AP can provide more choices, but what I have seen in my little neck of the woods is that it is the state schools which are allowing students to either place into higher level classes & or actually place out of classes and get credit.
WHile the competitive schools are expecting students to have take APs to prepare them for college, my daughters school for instance strongly suggests that students take the intro classes in everything but foreign language regardless of how high they got on test.
I expect that a student who did well enough to get 4 or 5s, on 4 or 5 AP tests, is going to have a difficult time finding a state school where they can be challenged.</p>
<p>Actually one of the reasons why I initially didn't want my younger daughter to attend this school is because they offer so many AP classes. At her previous school, they didn't offer any, and as it was very small, it was fairly easy to be high in the class, and to show that you have taken the highest academic courseload available.
At this school, where kids are either taking AP or community college courses in junior and senior year and sometimes even earlier, I was worried about her not being at that level. However, they are very interested in all kids at least trying APs, and being prepared for that, and she has gotten a lot of support freshman year to take several honors classes, and is getting about a 3.8 in all her classes, so it is probable that she will be ready to take one or two AP classes junior year.
Not as many as the kids who are admitted to Princeton or Yale probably, but I can't see her on the east coast anyway. ( she did love NYC though)</p>
<br>
<p>However, they are very interested in all kids at least trying APs, and being prepared for that, and she has gotten a lot of support freshman year to take several honors classes, and is getting about a 3.8 in all her classes, so it is probable that she will be ready to take one or two AP classes junior year.</p>
<br>
<p>I'm a strong advocate that AP/IB courses should be open to all students who wish to take on the challenge, and that the schools/parents should prepare them with their prior courses and provide an ongoing system of support. Along with family variables, this is the way to make sure students are prepared for college level work.</p>
<p>I really didn't care if my kids took credits or not for their scores when they arrived on their college campuses. What I know is that they were very well prepared for the challenges and higher expectations in their college coursework. Made for successful academic adjustments. My talented niece and nephew never took honors/AP at all (parents were not aware and let kids pick hs classes without their input). They initially drowned at UC's.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4:</p>
<p>obviously, course load in both HS and college is a balancing act, and AP's are not for everyone, but they do offer the advantage of a national test which calibrates teh HS course. But, I would concur with your counselors....if a student is going to major in math, then, the student might strongly consider taking the intro 'Calc 1' as a Frosh, or take the Honors version, if offered. However, if the student has no interest in further math (and wants to major in social science or humanities, then why not pass the AP Calc test and and use it to fulfill a distribution requirement. (Of course, if the kid changes his/her mind, and wants to take further math in college, then s/he is well prepared.)</p>
<p>But, I disagree that someone who scores a 4 or 5 "will have a difficult time finding a state school where they will be challenged." There are many top state schools (Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, Virginia, North Carolina) to rattle off a few, where, not only are kids challenged with a rigorous curriculum, but many the kids who are enrolled in Chem 1, Calc 1, English 1, etc., took AP in HS. I would assume that the same is true at Washington and Oregon as well as Texas, and many other state schools. Unfortunately, at top schools (both public and private), a kid without the AP going into Chem 1 will be at a disadvantage because many kids have already taken AP Chem. Moreover, if that student is thinking of grad school, such as med school, the competition in the required pre-med courses is extremely difficult bcos many kids in those classes have already had all of the AP sciences and math (Calc, Bio, Physics. and Chem).</p>
<p>Our experience with state schools has been from listening to friends and neighbors discuss the level of academics. While I don't argue that it is very competitive for admittance, but we have seen that it is difficult to keep up the level of expected rigor in many large schools with large classes. Honors programs provide a good challenge for students although like a friend who graduated from the UW at 19 with a double major in physics and astronomy with a minor in Russian, some students may find a more challenging atmosphere elsewhere.
While there are certainly strong programs, particulary if you get the more demanding instructors, I didn't say it was impossible to find a challenging program for high acheiving students, only that it was difficult.
I also disagree that premed majors are necessarily difficult for students who haven't taken AP. My daughters school didn't have any AP classes, but she took a year a piece of theoretical physics, chemistry, biology and genetics.
She didn't run into any problems at her school majoring in biology until a series of health and personal problems combined with a tough organic chemistry class.
( she isn't a premed major but her school requires organic chemistry for biology majors, unlike many other schools where it is only required for chem majors or premed)
my point was that taking the AP test, isn't necessarily going to get you out of retaking that class at a college level, and if it was not, if you have already shown that you are "college material", it seemed repetitive to take it ( and expensive)
<a href="http://www.rbs0.com/college.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.rbs0.com/college.htm</a>
this illustrates my bias toward liberal arts colleges
I note that the universities often give credit for a 3 or higher, while smaller schools usually require a 4 or 5, this seems to me to indicate that the smaller schools expect more at least at outset.</p>
<p>I am experiencing one of the biggest drawbacks to block scheduling. Son was sick yesterday and is sick again today. I don't know how he will feel tomorrow. He tried to get himself to school today but it was not going to happen. He is now the equivalent of 4 days behind in school and he shows no sign of feeling much better.</p>
<p>Same here mom60. Except ours is due to weather. Its snowing in Carolina so six districts are closing early. And in our district so many bus drivers have called in, so it is a mess. Its supposed to snow thurs, fri, and when this happens, either there are school closings or delays and late starts. They have some snow days built into the schedule, and extend the year but that is well after the AP exams.</p>
<p>I don't know about your district but ours allows only 10 absences excused or unexcused until a student receives a FF in a class. Regardless of the current grade or grade at the end of the semester. FF=F due attendance due to block scheduling. And yes, I said excused, like illnesses, death of family...</p>
<p>I know I mentioned early in this thread about how much I can't stand 4x4 block!</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>Sorry to re-post on an old topic, but I just remembered the only item I don't like about the alternate block, or modified block, as it's called here: all tests, etc. are given over two days back-to-back, which sets up kids to help friends with unfair advantages....oftentime called cheating. When S was a frosh, I was volunteering at the school in pm, and was often there to drive home. One day, I just happend to peruse the grade sheets as I was walking down the hallway. Within a few minutes, it was clear that every math and science class held on day #2 had a higher grade average than those held on day #1. In some cases, the stats were significant:</p>
<p>Day 1 tests - 15% A's
Day 2 tests - 30% A's</p>
<p>the number of B's doubled as well. Since I knew most of S's classmates, it wasn't a matter of Day 2 having stronger kids, they just got hints to the tests on the next day. Now, of course, the admins say it all averages out, which is true, if over the course of 4 years, ALL kids share test 'hints'. I once joked with a GC that the HS ought do a study to see which Day schedule the A+'s are on -- since these kids typically receive academic awards, which are significant bcos our HS does not rank.</p>
<p>Other than this (minor?) nit-pick, the alternate block works well.</p>
<p>An update...we met with my daughter's guidance counselor today. There's really not much choice in scheduling with the way our school runs the block. She'll take three academic courses per semester. The honors sections of English/Earth Science/ Geometry in one and History/Biology/French 2 in the other. PE/health and choir will alternate days and run over the full year. She'll have another arts requirement in sophomore year, as well as PE/health every year, so there's not a lot of room to fit in extra academic courses. She will have to make some choices down the road about which AP courses to take.</p>
<p>MomoFour:</p>
<p>It definitely is a full load, 6 solids plus a VAPA elective and PE.</p>
<p>[cynically] Glad to see your district has its priorities in order....PE and health are full year courses, whereas all courses that are better taught/learned sequentially, (math, science, foreign language) are compressed??? PE is a natural for block schedule, IMO, but it sounds like your HS requires 4 years of PE. I'd be willing to bet that the first 4-6 weeks of the second year will be an intense review of the first year's work due to the 8 month layoff. Yikes. :(</p>
<p>Any chance the AP's will run all year? (the one school in our district on the 4x4 block runs APs from Sept to June, which works out pretty well.)</p>
<p>bluebayou...</p>
<p>Your point about significantly higher test scores on the 2nd day of back-to-back classes in the block schedule also applies to AM vs. PM classes in my regular 7 period day. Info about tests spreads like wildfire. For her history class one year, my D told me how guilty she felt about succumbing to her friends' pleas for test info. She struggled with loyalty vs. honor, and was very angry that the PM test averages were always higher than her class's. Even if she didn't disclose info, everyone else did.</p>
<p>I've been writing two test forms for years. For the PM tests, I always change #'s (the kids can easily walk out with equations, graphs, etc. on their calculators), and usually ask questions that are related, but come at the concept from a different direction. To a degree the PM kids still have a slight advantage, but full disclosure by a friend has resulted in identifying cheaters who face embarrasing and harsh consequences.</p>
<p>When faced with the stats you cited, I wonder what the teachers are doing to counter this 1st day/2nd day cheating effect.</p>
<p>M&B:</p>
<p>of course you are correct, but its much easier to go study some arcane Shakespeare sonnet overnight with google than it is to cram during lunch!</p>