BM Degree, Double Degree or Double Major?

College Majors Music Major
1

Thanks to some of the forum members, I read the following Peabody article entitled “The Double Degree Dilemma,” with a great deal of interest:

http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html

After reading this article about 3-4 times, I had a long discussion with my son who’s a talented violinist and a Junior in high school and, like so many other kids in a similar situation, who doesn’t know exactly what he wants to pursue and which colleges to apply to. I think the “Jennifer” profile in the above article fits him the best. His current options are, in the ranking order of his preference without still having made up his mind firmly yet, is:

  1. Pursue BS degree in Pre-Med (his current academic interest) while still continuing with his music interest on the side (school orchestra and other ensembles), or

  2. Pursue BM degree in a larger university LAS setting, such as IU (Jacobs), Northwestern (Bienen), Rice (Shepherd), Johns Hopkins (Peabody), etc., or

  3. Pursue a double major, or

  4. Pursue a double degree, BM with BS in Pre-Med

My son’s been a serious violinist/pianist since he was 5 years old, and although his past aspiration had him eyeing for the Harvard/NEC dual degree program, he’s now quite opposed to such dual or double degree programs as he’s been lately self-discovering how sick and tired he’s been having to lead a double life all these years as a musician and also as a serious academic scholar. Thus, the preference ranking order.

My specific questions I have are:

Regarding 2), pursuing BM degree: can my son, should a change of heart come upon him, say a year into his college, change from BM degree program to BS degree? Any complications with such a move (delaying the graduation, etc.)?

Regarding 3), pursuing a Double Major: is it possible to double major in Pre-Med and music performance? If so, what degree do they confer on graduation, BS or BM? Or, as the Peabody article seems to imply, that you can only double major in music performance with something also relates to music, say, music theory, that leads to a degree in BM? Also, can my son start off with a double major and drop one at a later point?

Regarding 4), pursuing a Double Degree: can my son start off with a double degree candidate and drop one off, should he choose to do so at a later point but before the graduation, as the Peabody article seems to suggest in “The Jennifer” profile?

I ask these questions because it’s critical that my son has the flexibility to be able to change and adopt as typical high school kids often do not have their minds firmly made up as they enter college. In the case of 4), for instance, the double degree program becomes a highly viable option for my son if he can drop one at a later point – should he chooses to and if it’s allowed – even though he currently hates the idea of further leading a double life. Likewise, with 3).

Lastly, does applying for colleges as a BM degree, double degree or double major candidate have ANY impact on my son’s admittance chances to the above mentioned universities, i.e., Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Rice, IU, etc. My son has a very competitive academic (3.97 UW, 4.58 W in most rigorous IB and AP courses) and EC achievements to have a good chance at admittance to any of these on their own merit, but I’m curious as to how do the admissions play out when it comes to BM candidates at some of the academically high ranked universities.

2

I’ll try to answer some of your questions, I’m sure others will chime in.

At many schools such as IU, Oberlin a student needs to apply to each school separately and be accepted for each. i.e. ( I will use UM as I am most familiar with their procedures), he would apply to the school of music for a BM and go through the audition process and also apply to LSA for the BS or BA. You would have to check with each separate school as to how easy it would be to drop music and start pursuing an academic degree if he wasn’t already admitted to that program at that particular school. If he were already accepted to the other school it would be no problem to drop one or the other majors. If he started out pursuing a BS or BA at a school that has a music school and wanted to switch he would likely have to apply and audition for acceptance. It could take him longer depending on what requirements he had left to fulfill.

Pre-med is not a major so he could get a BM and take the additional premed courses, Organic Chem, Bio, etc. take the MCAT and apply to med school without getting a second degree. My understanding is that getting a dual major means majoring in 2 separate subjects that confer the same degree, such as music ed and music performance which would both be a BM or physics and chemistry, both BS, etc. If majoring in 2 subjects that confer different degrees, ie BS and BM that requires a double degree.

Generally no though Rice does not support their music students pursuing another degree.

3

Just my .02 ---- I would take very seriously your son’s desire not to “lead a double life”.The fact that he does not want to lead a “double life” implies that he has made some sort of choice. Many students are reticent to either tell their very supportive parents that they a) want to cut back on music or b) want to be a music major alone.
This was a serious heart to heart that D and I had early in her junior year of HS and her response completely surprised me. That she responded at all was due to the fact that I told her either path would not disappoint me in any way. (and I meant it) Unless he is truly passionate about becoming a professional musician, I would encourage him to look into option one.

Take a stroll through some of the older posts and you will understand why (after having hung around CC for a few years), I come to see this time of the year as “double major” season. :slight_smile:

4

@cellomom2 - So, it seems like those students who are admitted to BM degree program at, say, Northwestern/Bienen or Johns Hopkins/Peabody, they’d have to have as good academic qualifications (GPA, SAT/ACT, etc.) as those students admitted to their BA/BS programs? I’d have thought that their academic qualification criteria might be slightly less if the music performance quality is high?

5

@musicamusica - Yes, in all frankness, that’s where I’m currently leaning towards, too, i.e., option one, which is my son’s order of current preference. However, the reason why I want to look at all options at this point is that 1) his musical pull is very strong (he HAS TO make music each day to deal with his high school day to day stresses; it’s his passion), so we really don’t know what his own current preference might end up like in, say another year, and 2) if the colleges allow flexibility of the choice to drop one degree after starting off as a double degree candidate, my son can always have that choice, and hence my addressing that question. Also, 3) I really don’t want my son to tell me later in his life that he “regrets” at least not having explored the BM option.

6

So, our current plan is to apply to about 10 colleges for BS degree, about 4 for BM degree and perhaps 1 conservatory. Ultimately, financial consideration will have some impact in our decision making, too. What if he gets a full ride offer at a BM college whereas we’d have to pay $30,000 per year at a BS college?

7

If he is only going to get the BM, my understanding is that at a school such as NU or UM the school may relax their academic standards somewhat but not greatly for a qualified music student. They want the student to be successful in any academic general distribution classes that may be required. If he applies for a dual degree I believe he would need to be at the same level as other students applying for an academic degree. I’m not sure about the specific policies at Peabody/JHU as my son did not apply there. Your son is strong academically, his stats shouldn’t keep him out of any music programs.

8

Once he has explored the BM option, no one will force him to remain in a BM program. But like any change in a student’s major, there will probably be trade offs, usually in an extra semester or two. I will tell you this, it is easier to transfer OUT of a BM to a BA or BS program than it is to transfer IN to a BM. Whether or not this transfer is viable within a particular school will vary.

9

I think the answer to this following question will probably make the greatest impact in my son’s final decision: can a student with a BM degree be successfully admitted to medical schools, as long as he took some required Bio and Chem, etc. classes as an undergrad? I’ll emphasize, AS GOOD A CHANCE AS ANY STUDENTS WITH, say, Pre-Med concentration or BS in Biology as an undergrad, all else (GPA, EC) being equal?

If a student with BM degree has as good a chance of being admitted to medical schools, then the option of the BM route is strongly appealing to my son. He then has four years of college to leisurely think about choosing the medical career or simply go on to MM degree.

10

If he wants a BS instead of a BA - that, too, may narrow his options. Is there any reason you keep using that degree? It sounds to me like he’d be a good candidate for an Ivy like Yale or Princeton with like-minded academic musician peers. A violinist on this forum who had been considering double degrees just chose Brown. And there are schools like Williams, Swarthmore, and Tufts with solid music programs and adjunct professors. He could also just continue with private lessons if he goes to college in an area with good resources. The school itself would not need to provide the teachers nor the ensembles - he could join the local youth orchestra and take lessons off campus. Boston, NYC, Chicago, the Bay Area - they would all provide such options.

At programs with double degrees, if he dropped music he would lose his music merit scholarships - and if the finances are part of the equation, that would need to be considered. There are schools like Michigan which will award him academic and music merit - so if he dropped the music portion, he could still keep the academic. Other schools like Northwestern give minimal music merit, and minimal academic merit - so it wouldn’t make much difference at all if he dropped one of the degrees.

If he weren’t looking at music as part of the college experience - what would he want in a college? Small, big, rural, urban, frats, no frats, research university, liberal arts college etc.

11

No, you’re misunderstanding cellomom’s comments. They are different schools within the Universities and have different and separate admissions criteria. For instance, at the University of Michigan, admissions criteria for LSA is different from admissions to School of Engineering, all different from admissions criteria to the School of Music, Theater and Dance. SMTD’s academic criteria is lower than both LSA and Engineering, but they have a separate music/audition component which is their primary criteria.

I think the first question your son needs to consider is whether he’s actually interested in pursuing a music career. I would avoid the double major/degree path as the solution for someone who just doesn’t want to “waste” musical talent or all the work they’ve put into their music through high school. You don’t have to be a music major to stay involved in music and continue improving and participating in high-level and challenging musical pursuits.

Two things to keep in mind, in terms of flexibility once you’ve started down the college path.

There’s really no such thing as a “BS in Pre-Med”. There is nothing to preclude you from applying to medical school with a BM as your undergraduate degree. There will be course pre-requisites that you’ll need to be cognizant of, but the BM is a “real” undergraduate degree. Also, many music schools, including “top” ones, have BA and BFA programs that are “real” music major degrees. Again, no reason why you can’t continue on to master’s degrees or other professional degrees with a BA or BFA in music.

There’s also nothing to preclude you from pursuing a masters degree in music after a non-music undergraduate degree. I have two friends who have MM from top music schools, both in violin in fact, with non-music bachelor degrees.

12

" AS GOOD A CHANCE " No one can answer this. Though D has more than one friend who were music performance BA and BM undergrads go to Med School, they are all individuals. (One is just finishing up neurosurgery residency at Columbia) “All else” is never ever equal. This is not a formulaic experience.But it is eminently doable. Let me put it this way—Med Schools do not look down on music students.

13

Yes, anecdotally I can rattle off a number of my kids’ friends who did this, including some who went to pure conservatories like Juilliard (and took the required science classes after graduation.) Also, as ScreenName48105 notes, the opposite also happens: student major in an academic discipline and are admitted to MM programs. I recently saw a doc who told me she has a masters in piano performance from Peabody…

14

I used to quote a statistic a few years back but hesitate because I cannot cite it anymore. I’ll go ahead but understand I am using it to convey a general principle :slight_smile: I read, back then, that of all majors, music majors had the highest admit rate to med school at 62%. Additionally, and more recently, I have read that med schools are looking for applicants who majored in humanities or arts.

At the undergrad level, I wouldn’t worry so much about the med school angle.

My questions is, would he really have a double life on a campus where the conservatory students are well-integrated into college life with non-conservatory students? Think about Oberlin, just as an example. (And Oberlin has a “low wall” between conservatory and college meaning yes, you could drop one part of the double degree.)

I do think the Harvard/NEC (which is a BA/MM by the way) and Tufts/NEC types of programs are conducive to a feeling of a double life.

I would also ask if he would miss other academics if he spent 2/3-3/4 of his time on music, as a BM generally requires. Then again, would he miss music if he spent most of his time on science, for instance and played in the college orchestra (private lessons would help with this, and some music classes as electives or part of a minor). The latter might really work. He could take theory, music history and analysis and so on if he had room in his schedule.

Your son strikes me as perfect double degree material honestly. Or a BS candidate with lessons, performance and so on on the side. (We know some really talented musicians at selective schools who did BA’s and who went on to grad school in music or to performance careers, and some also became consultants or lawyers too.) He doesn’t seem like a kid who would fit at a freestanding conservatory, that would seem to be one definite.

15

@SpiritManager - Yes, I do agree that my son would be a good fit at some colleges with like-minded academic musicians. In fact, today my son received a phone call from a highly influential mentor who encouraged him to apply to Harvard so he could play violin in Boston Youth Symphony Orchestra under his good friend and conductor, Benjamin Zander. I think the mentor either called Mr. Zander or emailed him about my son. That’s quite encouraging. My son will apply to some of the Ivies, particularly Harvard, Princeton and Yale, and a couple of LAC’s, Williams and Amherst, as well as 3 to 4 schools that offer BM degrees. His above-mentioned mentor is a former VP of NEC and a good friend of the President of Juilliard, so my son will end up applying for these two, as well, although we’re not so keen on free-standing conservatories. But I’m going to keep options open at this point. As time gets nearer, perhaps we’ll narrow things down a bit.

16

@ScreenName48105 - Thank you for the clarifications. I gather, then, that it’s “easier” to get into a BM degree program (provided that the audition is successful, of course) than either BA or BS program. For my son, the BM degree route seems to make a sense, as he’s not too sure whether he wants to go all the way with music or change the course after the undergrad years and go into medicine. It seems to be that BM degree is not a liability in getting into a medical school, after all. As mentioned in my above post, he’ll be applying to a mixture of schools and his decision would be based on the results, financial aid offers, etc.

17

@musicamusica and @glassharmonica – Thank you for your reassuring words. BM degree is now a really good possibility, since even med schools are possibilities with it should my son decides to change the course after the undergrad.

18

@TiggerDad - I would think your son would be happier not at a stand alone conservatory like Juilliard, unless he was doing the exchange with Columbia - because the level of academics would probably not be challenging enough for him, nor would he be able to take the organic chemistry and other required courses for admission to med school. Curtis does allow one to take classes at Penn - just not sure of the logistics - especially with lab classes. I think he’d be much happier at a university with both high level academics and music where he could pick and choose more easily the classes he’d like to take. And he sounds like a good candidate for the Tufts/NEC dual degree.

Also, Amherst is not generally thought of for high level performance studies/ensembles. LAC’s like Williams, Swarthmore and Vassar on the East Coast come up much more often.

19

@compmom - 62% admittance rate is music to my ears (pun intended :-)). While that’s the first time I heard of it, I did read somewhere that the med schools are now looking for students with humanities background. That’s great.

I don’t think my son is all that opposed to doing a double degree program within a larger university settings and among students who go through the same experience. I also agree that it’s entirely different with programs like Harvard/NEC or Harvard/Tufts where he’d definitely feel like he’s living a double life that he learned to dread.

I think his preference ranking is good: 1) Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Williams, Amherst, etc. with music on the side; 2) BM granting universities or BM/BS double degree programs, while the least favored option is 3) free-standing conservatories.

20

@SpiritManager – Agreed, we’re most likely to drop any idea of applying to free-standing conservatories. My son’s definitely not interested in Harvard/NEC or /Tufts, so that’s out, too!

Thanks for the heads up on Amherst. We’ll probably drop that from our consideration, then.